9. Corinna Kühnapfel and Ian Stewart: EDGE, art & neuroscience, and empirical aesthetics

This episode features two guests: Coco Kühnapfel and Ian Stewart, who are half of the team behind EDGE. EDGE is an organisation that tries to bring together neuroscientists and artists to enable communication and to strengthen the intersection between the two fields. EDGE organises workshops and art exhibitions.

In this conversation, we talk about the relationship between art and science, how EDGE started and has been evolving, and Coco gives a brief overview of empirical aesthetics. As always, there are plenty of random tangents.

BJKS Podcast is a podcast about neuroscience, psychology, and anything vaguely related, hosted by Benjamin James Kuper-Smith. New conversations every other Friday. You can find the podcast on all podcasting platforms (e.g., Spotify, Apple/Google Podcasts, etc.).

Timestamps
0:01:02: What are EDGE workshops and who takes part?
0:12:08: The evolution of EDGE part 1
0:24:00: Metaphors in art and science
0:32:58: The evolution of EDGE part 2
0:41:05: The magical benefits of being an EDGE member
0:54:20: Separating/combining art and science
1:02:25: Outsider art/terminology in art
1:16:02: Coco's path to empirical aesthetics
1:22:28: Empirical aesthetics/neuroaesthetics

Podcast links

EDGE links

Ben's links


  • [This is an automated transcript with many errors]

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: [00:00:00] Maybe we can start with how I came across edge neuro science, which is somewhat, 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: yeah, like how did you meet Ian or how did 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: you Well that's, those are two separate things almost. So that's true. Um, so I mean, yeah, for context, Ian and I lived together for half in Berlin or something like that. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: That Nice.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And that was a few years ago. And anyway, so I was, I was doing my PhD and my supervisor sends an email around to um, me and the other PhD students saying, Hey, there's this conference in Berlin sounds kind of interesting. And as you might expect with the Berlin, there's some sort of art thing involved with it.

    And then I thought, art thing, Berlin neuroscience, click on it. I said like neuroscience and art. I thought, is this what I think what it is? And then I kicked it. And then it was, uh, you know, the edge neuroscience that, um, well, I saw, I saw Ian and Amy, and I thought, okay, 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: uh, the conference, you mean the [00:01:00] exhibition, the first one?

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, so it was the, uh, virtual, wait, I, I wrote this down space navigation workshop. The art and science of way finding. Nice. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Mm-hmm. 

    Ian Stewart: Ah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: um, by the way, what, what was that? Actually, I only saw the, I can't remember 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: when. So there 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: was in spring, what was it? This workshop? 

    Ian Stewart: Yeah. So, um, I didn't attend, maybe Coco did, but that was, we, we'd moved online at that point already.

    Um, so Amy was actually in France, I think with her sister. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Wait, that was the last year? 

    Ian Stewart: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: This 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: ish? No, this was, yeah, 2022. It should have been in spring 

    Ian Stewart: 2020. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. 

    Ian Stewart: Yeah. Um, yeah, so, so we, I mean we've got the workshop series, which, um, that is a part of, and we've got this exhibition series as well. And, um, the exhibition series, um, might have been, [00:02:00] I think what you emailed me about first, 'cause I, I remember getting this message as well.

    Um, but the workshop series, you know, thanks for keeping up on our newsletter. Um, that's been kind of keeping up, uh, going, although we've taken a break now for the last few months. But that one, which was on like way finding, I think that's a pretty good example of, of the kind of the merging of art and neuroscience in like, in, in a topic based way.

    And then how do you kind of present, like how does that really form something that you, people can congregate around? Um, so 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: what, what does this kind of workshop involve? Like is it like if I take part in that kind of workshop, what do I do? 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: So the workshop series evolves around the topic, um, neuroscience and creativity.

    And we usually have a theoretical part where someone would give a lecture or yeah, give a lecture and then we would have a practical [00:03:00] hands-on part where the audience would get involved. And also we have a little like speed meeting part where people can engage and get to know each other. Um, again, on the spatial navigation workshop that was on the art and science of, we had Amy Young, who was a co-founder of the Edge team, and then her sister also participated and they gave a lecture on the neuroscience of way finding.

    And then there was, so Dora is Amy's sister and. She is a geographer and she was interested in like creative digital mapping. And um, then we also had a guest from the field, space company. And, um, the contact was established because I was an intern at the company and they have a navigation bed which vibrates into direction of north.

    So for example, blind people can wear it to navigate around. So that also fit perfectly [00:04:00] to Wayfind. Orient is the tool orientation. The, it's a, it's a belt that you wear around your 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: waist. A belt. I thought you said bed. Wow. A bed that vibrates when it faces north. That's amazing. Okay. A belt. Yeah. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah.

    Vibrating that, that can be used for orientation. And that, um, evolved out of a research project, um, at the university where I did my bachelor's in, in Osana book, and now they are also bringing it out as a product and founded a company. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Is it only for blind people or is it, are there also other people who 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: I think also other people, I dunno what 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: the reason might be, but 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: um, yeah, for example, I wear it myself for a time and when you really wear it for some time, you really get the sense of north or you Yeah.

    Ian Stewart: Right. You don't have to wait till it get, goes into night and look for the star every time. You just kind of like a homing pigeon or, it's pretty good. Yeah. But the bed sounds pretty good as well, right? You can like set your room up like in like a feng [00:05:00] shui, like perfect angles, like, um, you know, let, let in the, the, the good fortune from the east, I think.

    I don't know. I don't know anything about this stuff. Um, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah. Yeah. But also I would imagine, I don't, Muslim people have to pray towards maker, isn't that a thing? Yeah. So in theory they should also know pretty well. Where, 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: yeah. Or they, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: whatever the direction that is, just check on 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: their phone every time.

    But yeah, 

    I 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: don't know. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Like the Mecca app or something. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. Yeah. But coming back to the workshop, I think this one is a perfect example, how we brought people together. So we had Amy from Edge and also her being a neuroscientist, and then Dora being a geo geograph is the word. Um, and then, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I'm sure that's the word, 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: someone with a cognitive science background involved in the company.

    Um, yeah, so I think this was the first one we did online. So this is, was also different to the ones we did before in Berlin most of the time. So that [00:06:00] way a lot of people from around the world could also attend. And also we were able to record it to last, have it last longer. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, is that recording publicly available or 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: this one not.

    Um, but the following two online workshops we did in like May and. Like pre April and May. It's on our YouTube channel. We have one. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Mm-hmm. Okay. So who's the what, you know, what kind of people take part or for whom do you create these kind of workshops?

    Ian Stewart: Uh, I think 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: either of you can respond. 

    Ian Stewart: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Um, it's gonna be a thing throughout this meeting. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I'll just, I mean, I, who's gonna say something first? Ask the questions openly and then we'll see. Yeah. Whoever feels most inspired. 

    Ian Stewart: Honestly, a lot of Masters students, um, a lot of, a lot of people who know that, uh, neuroscience is, I mean, this [00:07:00] a lot of different groups, right?

    But one group I've noticed is master students. Like people who, who know that neuroscience is something that they really want to get into. They want to, they want to deepen their immersion in it, and they're just starting out. So they're kind of looking for ways to socially connect and, um, and kind of, you know, just they're, they, they're snooping around to see what's out there.

    And they think the idea of, of having neuroscience in like an open way in, you know, these publicly accessible workshops and with a, with, with a varied, like a multi-varied perspective upon topics is really interesting. So, so we get a a a lot of, yeah, like, Hey, I've just turned up in Berlin, so 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: that's my student in neuroscience or what topics?

    Yeah. Or 

    Ian Stewart: I mean, I remember some cognitive science math students. Um, a lot of, uh, we get students from the minor brain who've like popped down a few times. Um, we had, I think it's from Potsdam and I mean I and Cocoa originally as well also. [00:08:00] From like a, a neuroscience related field i'd, I'd say maybe. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah.

    So I was a master student myself half a year ago. So 

    Ian Stewart: yeah, 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: we got 

    Ian Stewart: a 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: I agree with you. Is that how 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: you got involved or 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: that's another story. Um, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: oh, okay. You made, now I'm almost in more in before I ask the question, 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: but the workshop, it also depends very much on the topics. Of course, in the beginning it was a lot of friends of friends and like universities.

    But now when we had topics like theater and empathy, of course, like people who would find it in the internet being somehow in the theater world, they would join. Or one topic was, um, like micr microscopy. So maybe that attracted more like biologists and then we shouldn't forget the, um, artist side. So I think we wanna speak to like both artists and scientists and also the general public.

    Ian Stewart: Yeah, [00:09:00] yeah. We get philosophers as well. We get people who are interested in science communication. Um, and we get, uh, we get friends, but we've also get people that we've never met before. We get people who don't know anyone in Berlin. We, we get people who know exactly who we are and finally made it. Um, and then we, you know, we get people who just kind of, especially with the online ones, it's really interesting.

    We get people who, who we, we don't know how many degrees of separation there are. There are, and they've just really come for the content. And there's something about, it's like drawing them in. Um, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah. So like, they saw one of your exhibitions or videos or what? And then they just said, yeah, follow your newsletter, or how do they 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah, like this, or a platform called Meetup where you can look for events and.

    Um, look for events in your city with certain keywords. So I think at some, in some time, there were a lot of people coming from the meetup platform who found us [00:10:00] through that. And then also in 2019, we did most of the workshops in a space called Top Lab in No Code. Uh, so it's a gallery space accessible from the street.

    So maybe also people walked by and saw the flyers or saw the event happening through the windows and noticed, 

    Ian Stewart: and we get people, another group of people. It's really interesting people who, who've got like a nugget of an idea in their head, but they, but they, they don't know how to start doing it. Right.

    Uh, especially, especially from a, the, you know, people outside of neuroscience who, who want to do something neuroscientific. Um, you know, they, they don't know the key words or they don't know the techniques, or they don't know the. You know, the state of the knowledge either and, and also they don't have access to the knowledge if it's behind a paywall, but they know that like from where, whatever other background they're coming from, they're really trying to, you know, [00:11:00] bridge that to neuroscience.

    And then they, they come to to edge workshops and to edge exhibitions and that, you know, they often introduce themselves like, hey, um, I, I know one woman in particular, she, she came up to me and she said, Hey, I'm a dancer and a musician and I, I want to do a project with EEG headsets, but I don't know anything about them.

    And, and then, and that's kind of what, um, the platform, 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: yeah. This is where Edge comes in. Exactly. And where we. I don't know. Yeah. We see us ourselves as a platform we, where we also bring people together and somehow like a network where we can possibly connect such an artist or dancer with a person who knows how an EEG works.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. It sounds almost like as if the workshops are more, you offer a topic and then people who are interested in topic from various domains kind of congregate and then meet each other. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So in a sense it's almost more, yeah. Offering [00:12:00] a platform for people to meet rather than 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: definitely 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: anything more specific almost than that.

    So has, so whether, how long has this been going for and on for the liquid? Did you start this? 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: So Ian, you started in 2018 with Amy and Tiana? 

    Ian Stewart: Uh, yeah. We've had. We've had three annual exhibitions, right? So 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: yeah, 

    Ian Stewart: 1, 2, 3 years. Um, 2021. And, um, yeah, and, and the, the exhibition was the, in 2018, that was kind of the first thing we did.

    That was in summer. Uh, and that had a, think about six months or so of planning behind it. Um, so for, for me, I think the first time we ever talked about it was, uh, like late 2017. Um, and, and so it kind of, it kind of grew up together with, uh, me, my PhD, which I also started around that time. And, uh, [00:13:00] Amy and Tatiana started their master's course in neuroscience, um, medical neuroscience at the Shahi, you know, September, 2017.

    Um, and then. I, I mean they, it's very quickly the, the thing evolves and it's been going on since then. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. Maybe you can say how it evolves or like, I mean, I wasn't there, but I know the story, which I, I really like, 

    Ian Stewart: uh, it, I mean, it was, it's a pretty cute story, right? It kind of started off really just being, um, like the, the, the student cohort that, that Amy and Tatiana were in and this kind of group of friends around them.

    Um, I think the medical neuroscience program in Shahi tier, they recruit the. Like, like in a kind of, uh, modern, international way, like diverse background people and, and people who, who don't just have kind of [00:14:00]hard science qualifications, but who have, you know, more, uh, diverse and creative professional backgrounds as well as, um, cultural backgrounds and languages.

    And then the course is taught in English. So you had a, a pool of like, kind of, uh, colorful and, and creative people who'd all just moved into, moved to this new city. A lot of them, um, thrown together into a student cohort. And, and that's I think what the exhibition then was a really motivated, like, oh, we, let's have an event that kind of celebrates the artistic side of all of these neuroscientists, right?

    All these people who, who, you know, they spend a lot of time in labs, but what are they doing, you know? In the creative moments and can we find a platform for that? Um, and it, it was, it was kind of, I think it's, it was kind of interesting how, how critical creating like a space for that expression [00:15:00] ended up being.

    Um, so when we were popping around how to kind of grow edge and what to do with it and where do we fit in the art world as well. I talked to some of my friends who are artists and, and they, you know, they don't really know how to classify like edge very well in terms of the art world, right? You, and even in German you have this idea of like building the K and dash t and, and then you have like, okay, your 2K types, and then you're like, oh, and otherwise like, oh, there's performance art and then there's this kind of art and there's, and, and Edge I've heard kind of fits into like outsider art.

    Which is like art by non-artists or like art that kind of doesn't come from like an academic art background. Um, and, and the idea of like you, uh, uh, presenting art pieces by, [00:16:00] by professional other something else, you know, and, and not thinking of that as like amateur art, right? I, you know, we kind of wanted, we kind of figured out, oh, we we're sort of one of the only groups really that like fills this sort of inter interstitial space.

    Um, and now I think science, art actually, once you kind of know the term and you dig around and you know the world, it's quite diverse and there's a lot going on. Um, but you've still got this idea of like collaborating between like scientists and artists. Um, which is where edge is kind of growing, right?

    So we started from this background of, you know what, actually scientists are also artists. And that's kind of still like a huge part of what we're doing. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: What do you mean by scientists? Are artists? Do you mean, uh, in terms of scientists also do art or the act of doing science is also doing art? Or what do you mean by that?

    Ian Stewart: Right. I mean, I think once I've taken these terms, [00:17:00] our scientists and artists, right, like these nominal definitions, then, you know, on what level do I define them? And if you're saying like, oh, professionally or in terms of like public perception of a person, then, um, the idea that a scientist is also an artist that's, that's like a new idea that you're kind of constructing as we're going.

    Um, but the idea that like scientists also make art is sort of. You know, very much like what we showed in the first exhibition. Like, look, here's, here's someone who's doing, uh, patch clamp recordings in, uh, in a wet lab, ex vivo who has taken photos of her setup and of her colleagues. Right. And like that photography, you know, what, what, what would you, what would you kind of call it?

    Like if you, if you didn't think of that as, as art, right? You'd just be like, is this like documentation photography or whatever. But we were just kind of like, actually no, like there's no reason you can't [00:18:00] call it, call it art, right? Like the person's kind of made it, you know, to express themselves and given us a, a view of something that we don't typically have access to.

    And the members of the public don't typically have access to or, or much of an understanding of like lab spaces, like, like the, the, the experimental process. Um. So that was, that's, that was very quickly like kind of where we started. And I think, I think that that very quickly, like it opens up so much already, right?

    Once you just sort of say like, Hey, um, you know, just because you're a scientist doesn't mean you can't make art. And then let's, let's, let's dig into this. Uh, and then as we grew, um, we expanded that to be not just our call outs, expanded to be not just scientists who wanted to show their art, but also artists who, who were incorporating [00:19:00] science neuroscientific knowledge and techniques into their art, or either already or, or in a way that they developed, um, in, you know, also within like the supportive environment of edge.

    Um, you know, it also became this kind of development space for ideas. And a lot of the original ideas that we grew or developed on were like, what is art? Um, and how do we define art? We had all these workshops that, at that, that like ran into philosophical discussions of like, you know, what is art? And, and, uh, you know, when is science art?

    And, and one was really interesting in, um, science communication. We were thinking about, oh, how do you feed back? Like, like, like communication metaphors and, and ideas into scientific research. Right. And there's, and that the commonality there is like conceptualization, like what [00:20:00] is the metaphor that you've constructed to think about the, the system that you're researching.

    Because you've never really got the system in its full complexity in front of you, right? Like, you know, either it's invisible or it's just too complex or whatever. So, so how does the metaphor that you're applying in your own head and in your language, changing your research approach to the system, right?

    And so then, and then it's like, oh, so metaphor writing, creative writing, like these things that we would typically call art, they're also kind of in science. And so are we breaking apart like the definition of science and the definition of art? And, and through this, through this growth, right? That's like the first year, you know, this kind of exhibition and these workshops, and then including more people from different places.

    Now we've kind of grown into like, oh. Um, interacting with institutes, uh, doing kind of, kind of [00:21:00] big picture things where we, we represent and we curate for, and we organize for, um, scientific research institutes and, and scientific interest foundations in neuroscience. Right. And we're, you know, we're kind of championing like, you know, science and art are really next to each other.

    They really overlap. And if you, if you acknowledge that overlap and you, and you gr and you let it kind of foster and you, um, then you actually, what you have is you have a great way to connect with each other, to connect with people. You have like a science communication tool. You have a public outreach tool and you have a, a, a way to make kind of science like.

    Like sensory and tangible and exciting and, and, and, and flexible that you can, then you throw ideas around a bit more. It becomes like a, like a, a, a more kind of abstract cognitive [00:22:00] space to think about your right, your research. Right? Which ultimately is a, is how are you thinking about the world and how do we understand it?

    Um, and how do we think about us? 'cause you know, it's neuroscience. Um, yeah. And then, yeah, and the nice thing is that we've figured out that neuroscience is pretty much in everything and behind everything. So, so we can pick like a topic from, from anywhere and, and then look at the neuroscience of that topic.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I mean, the, the last thing you said reminds me of something that I think Demi har the fan of deep mindset, he said something like he was considering whether to do physics or neuroscience. Because physics is like, what is stuff made of? And neuroscience is, how do we perceive all of it? Um, so in a way, like, you know, neuroscience is.

    Behind anything that humans could potentially do. Right, 

    Ian Stewart: right. And, and, you know, and if, and, and if feedback, so there's, now there's like neuroscience of creativity. So, you know, we can like look at [00:23:00] something, look at something else creatively, but then also be looking at how that creativity works. And, you know, I think in all the, these kind of things you, what, what the, the new emerging idea that we're kind of also supporting is, is that interdisciplinarity and, and like flexibility in your approach and in your terms.

    This can. Really create these, these wonderful moments and spaces of, of kind of free and new thought, right? Like the, like the, the, uh, the Western model, right, of innovation, you know, is like, is like brainstorming and like, stay on your feet and, and don't wear shoes and, and all, and, and underneath all of this is a kind of, is an acknowledgement that, you know, um, thought and, and creativity and flexibility they come from, from not really being regimented in rules and structures, but kind of finding the, the, the overlap between different stuff.[00:24:00] 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: I mean, in the end, the like, artists and scientists are asking them same questions or probably not only people engaged in these two fields ask about how does work come to be? How do we think, how does, how do processes work? How do we perceive? So I think these questions are so interesting to a lot of people.

    And yeah, we just have different methods to, to look at these questions and Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I mean, one thing I find interesting that, um, uh, Ian mentioned earlier was you said, you know, whether like when you use a metaphor, let's say, to explain a scientific concept to a lay audience or something like that, and for science communication that, um, I mean in a way, of course, a metaphor is the same as a formal model.

    Is, is conceptually, I think similar to a formal model in science where you have some sort of mathematical formulation of something where you, you know, you [00:25:00] construct some sort of system, some sort of description of something, and then you kind of use the internal logic of that system to see what new predictions might come up and like if this is actually accurate description, what are the consequences of that?

    And in a way, I've never, I'm not sure I've ever thought about metaphors in that way, in the sense of a is also just some description. Some conceptualization of something, and then you can use that as a, um, you know, again, you can say if this, you can kind of use the internal rules of your metaphor to create new ideas and then see again whether that applies to what you originally studied.

    Ian Stewart: Right. And, and it, it, it's, if, if you can put Yeah, put a different metaphor onto something as well, or try out different metaphors for something, then you, you are, you are unveiling like different ways to [00:26:00] approach the study of it. Um, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah, 

    Ian Stewart: yeah. That's, that's what 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean. Yeah. 

    Ian Stewart: So, so I, I, I mean, I think it's, I think we completely underestimate like how embedded that is into everything, you know?

    Um, like even the way that we think about neuroscience today. Metaphorically is similar to the way that neuroscience was also kind of understood and not, not, you know, neuroscience didn't even exist then, but the relationship between, you know, movement and sensation and the self and the environment in like the 16 hundreds, you know, like you have kind of philosophical concepts here of, of Oh, okay.

    You know, the animal spirit that flows through the body through some kind of undefined liquid, right. This is, this is like the model for, for active movement in the 16 hundreds. You know, that that's in a way like the [00:27:00] uh, uh. The same level of understanding that we have now for, oh yeah, there's a nerve and the nerve kind of flows through the body and conducts, you know, an electrical signal that then causes a contraction of muscle, right?

    Like, you know, you can call it electricity, you can call it the animal spirit. Right? What's, what the difference between the two is the level of kind of specificity that you have in, in language nowadays. 'cause, you know, you can kind of dig in deeper into the knowledge. Um, but, but then, you know, metaphorically, like what does one thing reveal in the, that the other, you know, obfuscates as well.

    Um, I think a better example was explained to us in, in the workshop we had where, you know, if you think of. Like the, the, the flow of, of, you know, it like in a cell, like through a membrane, right? If you think, if you think of the flow of like, uh, you know, ions or, or, [00:28:00] uh, energy or any of these kind of things as like a river, right?

    Betwe and the, and the, and the cell is, you know, just sort of a part of the river, right? You then that kind of gives you an image of like, okay, there's a lot of kind of one directional flow, right? Right. And, and you know, and it's flowing through the cell, right? But if you think, if you in instead kind of you, you, you change the metaphor and you think of it as a reservoir, right?

    Like the, the, the extracellular membrane, uh, sorry, the extracellular matrix or the in or, or the cell itself is a, is a reservoir of stuff that kind of exchanges with it's outside through buckets, right? Completely changes the kind of the, your assumptions of the system. And then that would change actually how you then scientifically address it.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Do you, do you do that kind of thinking intentionally when you're like trying to think about your own stuff or, um, because I find like, it can be like one thing that I've, I've never really used it, but one thing that I found kind of interesting is that you just take, [00:29:00] uh, whatever you're studying and then you just take some sort of random everyday object and you ask, what if that thing is this?

    And I think the example was like, what if this is a shoe or something like that? And you think of, oh, what, like what would, what does a shoe do? It maybe like protects you from outside forces or something that, uh, it might have some sort of aesthetic, uh, reasons or whatever. And I found like when you do that, it actually does, it is kind of interesting what it, how it makes you think about what you're doing in completely new ways.

    Um, but I don't really use it. So sometimes this thing that I think is a great tool that I just completely forget about all the time.

    Ian Stewart: Um, there's one, there's one thing I do, uh, particularly. Um, which, which helps me, uh, and I kind try to keep it up regularly, and that is the, you know, realizing that, um, there are prob, there's kind of overlapping dimensions of meaning in, in what, what I'm studying, right? Like, um, okay. So what I, what [00:30:00] I do for my PhD research is, is proprioception.

    So I look at the, the, uh, the cortical signals in the, in the mouse sensory motor cortex that relate to the, the arm movement, right? But, but you know, the, the arm movement that I'm producing is in three dimensional space. So, so I've actually just kind of got like the pore on a thing and I'm moving it in, in one direction.

    Actually in, in, in two directions, in 2D, you know, but then that has a particular height, and so it becomes a plane in 3D. Right. But at the same time, I'm producing joint rotations and muscle length changes, and I'm producing a skin stretch. And all of those, you know, are, are in different dimensions, right?

    And then, and then, you know, and then the question is, okay, what, what kind of dimension is really relevant to the brain? Right? What, you know, what this cortical network that, and these neurons I'm recording from, what do they actually respond to? [00:31:00] What do they code for? And if I were to just ignore the idea that there are other dimensions possible, you know, views upon this stimulus that I'm producing, right, then I might just be completely wrong.

    Right? I might be looking at, you know, the, the, the kind of the Plato's cave shadow of the thing, you know, rather than looking at what, what's relevant. To the brain. Right. And, and you know, I think we have to kind of keep doing this a lot in neuroscience where, you know, do we have, do we have assumptions of what is important to the brain?

    Because that's how we have conceptualized the world already. Um, like, you know, even when you look at like an animal's vision, you know, um, right. Like their colorblindness, you know, we kind of forget what that makes, you know, what even information is available to [00:32:00] their systems. So I saw this cool image the other day, which was like a tiger in, in a bush, right?

    And the tiger's, orange and black and the bushes are all green. And to us, that looks really weird. And I've never understood why tigers are camouflaged. It makes no sense to me. Um, but then, but then, but then the, the image has like another version next to it, which is how, how the, you know, the, the gazelle's actually see.

    This image because they're red, green, colorblind. And so the tigers is, the tigers is green and black stripes and completely blends into the bush. Right. And, and this is, this is the kind of thing where're like, oh, okay. You know, if we are not careful about understanding how we're thinking about what we're studying, then we might just, we might just not get the story at all.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Questioning assumptions, 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: very nice 

    Ian Stewart: and 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: vivid example. 

    Ian Stewart: Yeah. But you know, you got some tigers in there. I love tigers. Um, right. And, and so, and [00:33:00] anyway, so, so, so to kind of tie it back to the, the evolution of edge, right? We kind of, um, you, we, we really thought a lot about, you know, how how do we start fostering the space where, where, you know, where artists get access to, to the, um.

    The new, the knowledge that they, they kind of wanna incorporate or they wanna talk about, right? I mean, ultimately they're interested in, or some artists are interested in how do we understand the world? Like what is the world? And then how can I kind of, you know, what sort of conversations can I have around that with, you know, in different medium?

    And, and for that, a lot of them are really interested in like, oh, what is really like the cutting edge understanding right now? Um, which is sort of hard, I think, to access if you're not in the field, right? And at the same time, how do we give scientists who want to express themselves a platform to do that?[00:34:00] 

    And how do we allow both scientists and artists to kind of have these, these concepts clashing that they really wanna exchange with each other and, and, you know, and, and, and break up the, you know, like rigidity in thinking and, and also connect the scientific knowledge to the public. Right. I mean the, the and, and all these kind of, you know, sort of vague ambitions really, um, they sort of get, they sort of formulate down into, oh, okay, yeah, we should just have like open social meetups and workshops and we should just have exhibitions open to the public.

    Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Is, um, so, so far we've talked about this all fairly abstractly. Is that like a concrete project or collaboration between maybe a artist and neuroscience or something that has come outta this that might kind of illustrate how this works in practice? Or is it. It's still too early for that. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah.

    Maybe one example of an artist which kind of visualizes [00:35:00] that, like the exhibitions are not like making the artist not only beneficial for the public, but also for the artist herself. For example, we had Dr. Tina Gani, um, I think she, um, so she's a neuroscientist and in the research she visualizes neurons in 2D and she always wanted to see the neurons in a neurons in a three dimensional structure.

    So, um, for our latest exhibition, uh, in October at the Mine Foundation, she, uh, made a sculpture, like an installation art piece, uh, where she visualized neurons. Um, and that installation was about memory, memory formation, and, um, synaptic, pla pla plastic plasticity. And she wanted to make these processes, uh, easily understandable by this light LED structure.

    So. I think she once reported that it was nice for her to see this process in a three dimensional ram. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So how does it work? Did [00:36:00] she like put up lights in a cube and then 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yes, exactly. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Hmm. But that's, I'm assuming not, that's probably the kind of thing you can only really experience when you are there, right?

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah, um, definitely. But, um, she also, uh, also was not her also to other people. Um, um, she also participated in our virtual exhibition because our second 2020, uh, exhibition, we couldn't hold in in person because of the Corona restrictions. So we brought that exhibition, um, online and there we, um, recorded a video of her explaining the piece and also recorded the piece so that way people can also experience it on their computers on.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. At least in, in some capacity. Yeah. Yeah. Is, I was wondering about the whole, um, during the, the during pandemic, how that's affected you. I mean, I would imagine in [00:37:00]the most obvious way, it makes it hard. Like you can't just do a lot of things or have to do them very differently. I was wondering, is there anything that actually for some unexpected reason made it easier or kind of helped you?

    I dunno, put the whole thing in new direction or, yeah, I dunno. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. I guess for the workshops, bringing them online, just the fact that it reached people around the world was a nice, very nice fact. So not only people who are actually living in Berlin could attend those workshops, but also they could see them online.

    Um. And then the possibility to curate an exhibition online. So he found this platform where we could implement all the artworks and videos and texts, and this is really amazing that it worked so well without having to program that yourself. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Did you have someone to do that for you or, 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: uh, yeah. It's a, it's a platform called a Art Steps, where we could just upload all the [00:38:00] materials and the videos and the artworks and some texts, and then you can like virtually walk through and click on the pieces and then they would enlarge and then you can play a video.

    And then, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: ah, okay. Yeah, I tried that. The 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: back. Yeah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: somehow I, yeah, I had, it took me a while to figure out that I had to use the, the key controls. I thought, I thought it was like, you know, Google Street where, where you just click on where you want to go and that didn't work. But uh, so if I click on the things, then it shows them larger or plays a video or, 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: yes.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Oh, okay. I didn't 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: know that. So I think this was a great opportunity and this also of course, will last longer over the next years as long as we keep it online. But then on the other hand, like the in-person events are of course super special and different. And I think one aspect with which is special for the Edge exhibitions is that a lot of artists are present, or like the scientists behind the pieces are present throughout the days.

    And then you can, like visitors can speak to them and ask questions and engage in [00:39:00] conversations and yeah, I think that's very nice. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I'd imagine that's kind of hard to replicate, right? Yeah. Like this kind of meeting, like if you are, let's say an artist who has an interest in this but doesn't really is maybe a bit shy or doesn't know how to go about it or doesn't know anything, um, I feel like that might be harder online.

    Yeah. 'cause you can't just like hang out and eventually chat to someone or, or do you have some sort of way of doing that online? 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: It also depends, I think, on the kind of person you are with like other like Zoom spaces coming up, I think some people really prefer or like open up more on the like screen and zoom room because you have the screen as a boundary and then can just like close your computer and run away in case it gets uncomfortable.

    But then of course other people can't do it that way so well and need the verbal gestures and everything and being present. [00:40:00] Yeah. I think it depends on what person you are. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. I hope you, you are not gonna randomly, you're not gonna just leave this conversation run away. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Don't think so. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, 

    Ian Stewart: yeah. No, I'm actually on a different webpage.

    On, on another, yeah. No, no. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. You're laughing a lot. It seems like you're watching something funny. Yeah. I mean, that's one thing I never, I never know what, what the guests are doing when I talk to them, whether they're checking email or whatever. I have no idea. Yeah. Um, wait, let me actually, so this is the auto Do you wanna 

    Ian Stewart: No, I was just gonna say, what are you doing, Ben?

    Like, you're doing something right now? No, but 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: sorry. Oh, yeah. No, no. Yeah, I'm checking. No, I have my, I have elaborate notes here. Ah, an entire page full of questions I can barely read because my handwriting is atrocious. Um, and that's been the case for every [00:41:00] interview so far. I don't know why I don't just type it out.

    That might be easier. Um, but no. So the one question I had now is something, uh, you know, I mentioned earlier, so I saw on your, or on the website somewhere that, or on the newsletter I believe, um, that, uh, you're looking for new members and they can sign up and it costs 10 euros. And my question is, what do I get for paying 10 Euros and being a member of Edge?

    Uh, other than, other than that fact? Yeah. What, why would I do that? I. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Who wants to start? Um, we can just throw, 

    Ian Stewart: there's so many benefits, you know, we can just like, just take turns. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 

    Ian Stewart: Um, 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: yeah, so like the first aspect that comes to my mind is if you're interested in the field, um, this gives you, um, the possibility to actively contribute and maybe you wanna host a workshop or [00:42:00]something, have a topic in mind, then we would invite you to our slack.

    That's where we communicate, and then we could organize something together and you could get involved into organization and, uh, yeah, contribute with your own ideas. So I guess we see ourselves as, as pretty open to ideas and workshop ideas and Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So it's not just limited to Berlin also, I mean, you are actually being 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: a match.

    Definitely not. Yeah. So. In summer, I moved to Vienna. Um, we first started in Berlin, but as we are growing, I think, um, and also with the, uh, possibility to have meetings online. Um, we are super international and it works to contribute from different locations around the world. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But Are you planning, uh, I'll get back to the benefits of signing up later in a second, but, uh, did, are you like doing a kind of Vienna, uh, what's the word, franchise?[00:43:00] 

    Yeah. I mean, like, are you planning to like, you know, set something up in Vienna while you're doing your PhD there, or 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Not directly, but I think ultimately that's one of edge's goals to, of course, maybe first establish a space in Berlin, a physical one. Maybe have a space where we can host our workshops and maybe also have artists.

    Um, to work there and make their art pieces, but then of course, in like a few years, have some hubs in other cities doing the same similar things. Yeah, definitely. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. But it's not like you are, you know, already said like, I wanna do one event this year in Vienna or something like that. Not yet, 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: but 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: we'll see.

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. As possibilities emerge and seeing how COVID allows it, definitely I would be open to it. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I mean also from the outside, I mean, I think like in Berlin you probably found a great city to do this kind of stuff. Um, 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: yeah. Also looking at how many other art and science [00:44:00] institutes associations emerged in like the past, like 10 years, not only in Berlin, also around the world, also magazines and platforms.

    I think there definitely is a interest in this. Intersection of art and science and 

    Ian Stewart: Yeah. Yeah, 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: yeah. 

    Ian Stewart: But, uh, you know, shout out to Berlin. Uh, it's pretty good. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, Berlin I think is especially the kind of place where people go to do something new, right. Um, I think if you are going to a different city, then maybe you're going there just to do your art or just to do your science.

    Um, but I feel like Berlin is particularly, um, yeah, like not a certain type of person moves to Berlin, but I think 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: definitely, yeah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: you probably do get more open people moving to Berlin, I'd say. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Which is why I left. I

    Oh man. No, but, uh, so sorry. We were going, uh, reasons top [00:45:00] 500 reasons for, for becoming a member of Edge. 

    Ian Stewart: Um, yeah, so I mean, it's a right, like an, um, which is a legal association. So, you know, what does that mean? That means that, that you, you actually have an elected executive structure legally speaking. You know, you have, you have card carrying members and they hold a vote about who's the president and you know, who's the treasurer and Oh yeah, we do have, you know, a treasure re, you know, we have, um, you know, a a, a soon to be bank account and, um.

    Right. And we have like, we have a, a legal structure that allows you to kind of apply for things and, and be represented on a kind of like a, you know, an official sense. And, and these are, these, these are kind of advantages that come in on like a, a, a, a really specific way for pe for people who, like are applying for [00:46:00] grants or who want to kick off a project or who, those kind of things that, you know, if you can, if you can say, oh, in support with, in collaboration with, I'm a member of, you know, this association.

    Right. That kind of lends a bit more gravitas to the, uh, a proposal for instance. Right. Plus you might, you know, you, you're kind of in, you know, as a member you're included in the conversation of like, oh, what do we do with the money that we have, that we get from like, members' fees that we get from, uh, grants, you know, that we get from donations, you know?

    And, uh, if someone wants some of that money, like they better be a member. Yeah.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So like if I, let's say, had some sort of thing I wanted to do in highly EQU right now, uh, would that, uh, do, so the grants, is that just applying externally or do you actually have some money if I, let's say, want to rent a space or something and need a upfront, [00:47:00] you know what I mean? Like, is is that something, is that an option actually, or, or in the future or now, or, 

    Ian Stewart: uh, yeah, I mean it's a, it's a, it's a future option.

    Um, mostly from like, you know, con like, like as an association that's about like balancing bouncing budgets as well. Right. And, and you know, no one, nobody gets paid. Um, I, you know, neither of us get paid unfortunately. Um, but we have jobs, which is fine. So, um, but um. But yeah, the, but then, you know, like, oh, like what do you need the space for?

    Does it fit in the Constitution? You know, uh, and are you a member? And, and you know, if the answers are yes, it's yes, you're a member. Yes, it's in the association constitution. And, and yes, like, you know, everyone kind of agrees that this is a great use of money. Then, then now you've got like the, the full force of edge, you know, like rocking, rocking on behind you to, to either help you or loan you money or help you raise money or, [00:48:00] you know, um, you know, like do, do a donation drive, right?

    Like do do a grant application or you know, when we're super rich, um, just pay for ourselves 'cause we'll be rich. Yeah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I sure only a matter of few weeks until you're all be getting massive salaries from it. 

    Ian Stewart: I mean, we've, I, I saw like a, a report from Slack earlier. Slack is kind of where we all congregate, like Cocoa said.

    And we've got like 37 members now. Um, who sent out like 27,000, or maybe it was 2,700. 2,700 sounds more realistic, doesn't it? Um, messages over, over the existence just of that Slack channel, which is about a year old. Um, so, you know, edge is growing and I think the more it grows, the more it can do, right?

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: So of course as a member you can also just be passive and donate your 10 euro yearly membership, which would support us. But I think being a member also gives you a [00:49:00] voice and Yeah, like saying what we like. If you have suggestions on what we should do or could do, or if you wanna do something, start something yourself.

    This gives you the platform and structure.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Now I'm considering whether I should sign up or not. 

    Ian Stewart: I mean, you should, you know, like, 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: yeah. And then of course in case we have, um, events where we. Take a little, um, entry fee or something that will be free for members, or like tickets for the exhibitions would be free for members, so, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: right. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: That's of 

    Ian Stewart: course.

    Well, hang on, hang on. We haven't talked about this though. Yeah, no, but yeah. But 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: that should for things we, yeah. 

    Ian Stewart: Um, no, but that is kind of the idea. I think. I think the idea would also be, um, and I mean this is a topic that I, I, I'd love to talk about as well in a deeper detail, like, um, for, uh, uh, for scientists and [00:50:00]also for, for artists and, and other people.

    But I, I know for scientists in particular, the case is that demonstrating like public outreach and, and, and social interest and, you know, association membership can be really beneficial for like, like research grant applications or for, you know, uh, fellowship applications, these kind of things. I, you know, I mean.

    This is sort of hard to really like nail down and prove, but at least if you look at the criterion for like, uh, ERC grants or DFG grants, this kind of thing, you know, it's like, oh, has the candidate demonstrated a history of public outreach? Right. And I think, I think, yeah, I've been a legal member of this science, art association with a strong interest in science communication for X number of years.

    Uh, you know, I, I, I'd say that that definitely falls in there. Um, you, I mean the, and, and we can, we can talk about this if you like, but I think, I [00:51:00] think what's kind of evolving here is like that, that. You, there's this sort of vague, vague statements for like in, in these sort of big policy from top down.

    Like, oh yeah, as a scientist, be interested in the public and be publicly connected. But there isn't always like a real concrete strategy for how to do that aside from, you know, oh, have an open science day and, uh, and do some science lambs. Right. And, and, and I think being an edge member and, and even contributing, like however you do, right?

    You don't have to make art. But, you know, collaborating with an artist to me sounds like an excellent way to kind of breach into new avenues for this kind of thing. Um, 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: yeah. 

    Ian Stewart: Yeah. So it'll help your, it'll help your career as a scientist. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I was about to say, I'm sure you don't mean it that way, or maybe you do, but it sounds like you're saying for 10 years, a, a year, you can boost your chances of getting an ERC grant.

    Ian Stewart: I don't see why not. I mean it's, you know, like, [00:52:00] um, I mean people, people say like you, your volunteering helps on your CV right then, and I, and I mean, we're, we're not a nonprofit yet, but we're, we're working toward that. It's like a tax, um, condition that you have to fulfill, um, which we're going to get.

    Definitely. And then, and then it's like, yeah, like you've donated to a nonprofit that has an interest in science communication and you're active in it. Here is, you know, 1 million to start your lab. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Easy. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. And I'm sure you can like du the 10 Euros from a Texas 'cause it's fun and profit to something too, so.

    Ian Stewart: Yeah. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Uh, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: perfect. I think, I think now people are joining. Um, uh, but yeah, I guess like, uh, I'm assuming also like, it, it. You know, when you hear like artists collaborating with scientists and that kind of thing, I guess it, it can sound slightly daunting, but I guess one, it might also be just be [00:53:00] interesting to, I guess if for example, if you're a scientist, you might also just know, you know, let's say an artist is interesting, something that you know a little bit about, then you can maybe point them a certain direction or say like, oh this person is interested in definitely art or whatever.

    'cause I guess, I mean you mentioned earlier that there's lots of scientists doing art or whatever, and I think most scientists do something on the side. Um, some sort of creative ho, I mean, I think at least a lot of them do. And you know, I think a lot of them don't even consider that something like this or like organization might even exist.

    Right. They're kind of just doing their thing. Um, so yeah, I guess just for the connecting also, it would be useful too. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. This is definitely one of the main aspects. Also from the artist side. So we mentioned earlier that a lot of artists are interested in neuroscientific concept for like memory or consciousness or neuroanatomy or mental [00:54:00] imagery or something.

    So, um, yeah, if they're interested in a topic, then we would, we could connect them to a scientist having background knowledge and then they could exchange and potentially create a project together. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Mm-hmm. Um, I have, so this is. Not necessarily in a question, I dunno whether this is gonna go anywhere, but one thing I noticed is that I, uh, like in just my own stuff, right?

    I, I take photos and I write, and if I have an instrument on me, I'll, I'll play a bit. Uh, but somehow I realized that's actually for me, completely separate from any kind of scientific thing. So much photography has never had anything to do with any kind of scientific concept or anything like that. Um, as I said, I, I don't really have a particular point to make it, but I just realized it was thinking about what we were gonna talk about that some of, for me, these are like completely separate things where for [00:55:00] some people Yeah, I dunno.

    Like, does that,

    Ian Stewart: yeah, that makes sense to me in a way. Um, I mean, I think Coco's maybe more creative than I am, but, um. Um, well, 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: you're a musician too. 

    Ian Stewart: Oh, that's true. Yeah, but my music's also completely separate from, although actually it, uh, it overlaps in like the, the, the, in some like technical aspects like, like the, the signal processing and the electronics and the soldiering you of, of like a, a gimmicky synthesizer, you know, is kind of what I did to build my experimental setup.

    Um, so, um, and I think, but I, I, but I think, um, you know, kind of the, the, the reason why these would be considered like, like staunchly separate in that way is, you know, um, like we, we [00:56:00] want to think we, we do things out of interest, right? We do things outta passion and, and then we have our, we have our work.

    We kind of, we kind of do that. And then to recharge, we have recreation, right? That's this kind of like postmodern, like capitalist productivity model. Um, and, and I, you know, I think that there's definitely, like, it could be risky and it could be kind of like, like even worse to say, oh, like, like just drag your hobbies into your work, you know, and then just like smear the lines between the two of them, right?

    But at the same time, if you, I think it's fair enough to say that, that that research, scientific research and also artistic production, you know, like the, these can be kind of passions that, that are beyond just a job, right? These are like, these are like life missions, you know, or they're just so interesting that, that, you know, it doesn't end when you leave the lab, right?

    And then to, and then to have the. [00:57:00] The, the encouragement to then kind of like draw parallels between your, your hobbies and your, and, and your work and to like apply like, oh, you know, why don't you take photos of your setup? Right. Or, or you know, would you take a portrait series like inside of a scanner?

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So it's just when you said like, why don't take photos of setup? I thought like, you mean my laptop? 

    Ian Stewart: Oh, right, yeah, yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Like a laptop and a piece of paper and a pencil. 

    Ian Stewart: Yeah. I mean, I, you know, that, that's like, that's like self-expression, right? Um, you know, you can, I wanna see the stickers on your laptop mate.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Zero stickers on my laptop. Oh, no, no. Wait. I think there's still, uh, the official university logo on there that they put on there. Yeah. That's the only sticker I think that's on there. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. I guess you don't like, as a scientist, you don't necessarily have to do art or as an artist you don't have to also engage with science.

    But in case you do, I think that's where. Like edge comes [00:58:00] in, for example, when you wanna look like use art to communicate a, maybe just the scientific, scientific process. Like what is it like to, like, do science, who is the human behind the science? Or B, communicate scientific, uh, concepts and topics, or then as a scientist using art to maybe look at things in a different way.

    And maybe that can help you to rethink your thinking and your own understanding and create new associations. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Hmm. Uh, Ian mentioned earlier that, that, uh, you are much more creative. So what do you do? 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: I don't know what Ian, that that got that, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: what I mean is I think I have a rough idea of how, how Ian spends his days at being creative.

    Yeah. But I, I don't, you know, we haven't met until like an hour ago, Fred. So. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: What, what, what I observed for myself. It's like I was, [00:59:00] I think I was quite creative in like high school, like to, um, paint and make class and I liked photography, but then I started cognitive science and I think since I stepped into the science world, my creativity dropped a bit and I fear that also my thinking changed a bit.

    Or when I look at things that I made when I was like 18, um, like now I could probably couldn't make them again. So I think this is also interesting, interesting in how like when you really are trained in a discipline for many years, how your thinking changes and maybe also your creativity. So I've always been interested in art so that stick in the scientific field and I think through edge I found a way to combine my, like scientific interests with art somehow.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: What do you mean by you couldn't do what you did at 18? 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: I think I, is it 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: like just a technical thing in terms of [01:00:00] you just haven't 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: been doing 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: it 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: as much 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: or? No. Think 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: creativity. I think maybe I was more free in a way and now I, I have a different thinking through all like courses and logic and maths and programming.

    Yeah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: it's, it's MATLAB creativity 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: maybe. Yeah. But I think studying science versus maybe studying art shapes your thinking in a way over the years. So I really like to engage with artists in the edge realm and 

    Ian Stewart: mm-hmm. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Uh, this is probably also what's interesting for artists and scientists. 'cause thinking is so different sometimes and we use different methods and.

    Use different methods to communicate our findings.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I, I feel like sometimes that I've [01:01:00] really, um, how we say sometimes just don't have the patience to explore certain things because I like, like, you know, like almost like a narrow mindedness to it that um, I mean it feels like I did. You didn't use to have that. I don't know, maybe that's just a false memory of how I used to be, but yeah.

    I wonder whether that comes from like a specific scientific practice or just from, I don't know. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. Just 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: having lived longer and building up like a certain worldview in general. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: It's an interesting question could come from the scientific training and the way of thinking and the straightforwardness.

    Ian Stewart: Right? Which is funny 'cause science is meant to train you to, to, to think outta the box. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Right? 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: True. So. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. But I mean, the whole thing is also your, I mean, to think outside the box, you need to have a box, right? Like you kind of need the constraints with that. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: We have your starting point, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: [01:02:00] otherwise it's just kind of random.

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Floating around. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. And I mean, I guess we are still asking questions the same like artists do, but maybe then how we approach these questions is different. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah.

    I'm gonna check my extensive notes again. Yes. Uh, but if anyone with you has anything to add to that, then feel free. 

    Ian Stewart: Actually. Um, I maybe just to quickly ask something, uh, when I said outsider art earlier cocoa, I, you like, you had a, you had a little bit of, a little bit of an eyebrow thing. There. Um, and, and so one, yeah, and like, and one thing I've always like coming into, coming into the art world from a, as a non-art, you know, with like, um, I mean, I, I actually was in, um, was in an exhibition in my undergrad and, and I've always had an, had it like an interest, but, but you know, like it's, it has its own [01:03:00] jargon, right?

    It has its own kind of professional context to it. And I'm always, I, a lot of it is like, oh, what are these terms here and what are the key words? And I, I wonder whether I have a misunderstanding of what the term outsider art is. You know, I, I hope I'm using it correctly, but I just have a deep anxiety with everything.

    Art that I don't get it, you know? Hmm. Um, so what do you, do you have a definition for outsider art?

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Good question. That's a weird to speak about this coming from the side world, maybe. Next time we have an artist with us. 

    Ian Stewart: Yeah, that's true. Uh, yeah, I that's true. That's another thing is how, how art, how art world is neuroaesthetics, 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: how art, what, 

    Ian Stewart: how, like how deep in kind of art context and art, art conceptualization, right.

    Is, is this, is this field of neuroaesthetics because it kind of sounds like it, you know, it should like intersect [01:04:00] with, um 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Ah, yeah. 

    Ian Stewart: You know, like, like, like, I mean, art's got so much in it, like, like all the structuralism or the symbolism or the, you know, so many isms of its own right. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. So I see neuro aesthetic definitely as a pretty scientific field.

    Um, especially like the early years. I think like neuroscientists, were using art as special stimuli, which evokes special experiences. In humans that ordinary objects in our day-to-day life don't. So, um, at, can we use to find out something about our brain? Starting off with like visual perception. How do we perceive color form symmetry?

    What do we find beautiful informal properties and at attributes? So [01:05:00] I think neuroaesthetics mostly use art as something, uh, to explain the human brain and the workings of the brain, but it doesn't aim to explain art. So I think it's pretty unidirectional and still a scientific, they're coming from a scientific standpoint, 

    Ian Stewart: right?

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Just interrupt briefly. So I just googled outside art, and I think you are in, you are, you are fairly correct on this, Ian, 

    Ian Stewart: uh, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: right by self, self-taught and naive art makers. Uh, although the original definition seemed to focus on children and people in psychiatric hospitals. Oh. But I think I, I think that's where it came from, like originally.

    Uh, but I think it seems like it ma it mainly means people who, you know, aren't inside the art world and went to formal training and that kind of stuff. 

    Ian Stewart: Mm-hmm. Okay. So, so let me, let me get this straight. So, so PhD students [01:06:00] in neurobiology are in the same box as kids for like, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yes. No, 

    Ian Stewart: um, well, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: just untrained formally, right?

    Unless you had formal training. If you went to an art school, 

    Ian Stewart: ah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: then changed and went, uh, got a PhD in neuroscience, then you probably wouldn't be considered. 

    Ian Stewart: Right. Okay. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, 

    Ian Stewart: I also don't wanna disparage the ability of kids or of neurobiologists at all. Right. Um, but, but yeah, I mean, okay, cool. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: I mean, this is also something to consider for Ed Edge because, um, Amy, Tatiana, you, Ian and I, we were all coming from like, neuroscience, cognitive science, science room, and um, so we have some artists joining us more consistently and helping us, but I think it would be great to have more artists as members.

    Like actors members to get their perspective 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: and like artist from within the art, [01:07:00] not the outside artist, but 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: insider. Oh God. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But that should be, I mean, you could, you just like, you know, hang out flyers in art, uh, colleges, universities, whatever they're called. Right, right, right. Uh, those, these people should be reachable, right?

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we do have a, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: okay. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Large pool of artists from our past three exhibitions, um, like three and a half with the, including the virtual exhibitions. So we are in conversation. 

    Ian Stewart: Right. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Very 

    Ian Stewart: good. Yeah. But, but are they, are they. Are they insider artists or outsider artists? We, we 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: definitely have a lot of, um, trained artists.

    Ian Stewart: Oh, true. Yeah, that's, oh yeah. Actually, actually Valio is a really good example of like an insider artist working with the scientists to kind of get a new perspective upon, you know, how to, how to kind of make out. So he was, he's a painter and he's really interested in, in [01:08:00] kind of dreams and the subconscious and, uh, and, and, and, but he also paired teamed up with a, with someone who's working in machine learning for like a new series of paintings.

    Um, right. And that was like, that was kind of like through, through edge or indirectly as well, or at least we, um, always said it was a great idea and he should do it. Um, so 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: yeah, that's a nice example because in the first exhibition he only, um, ex like, he exhibited his paintings. And then in our second exhibition, like a year later, he then.

    Created a new project on, um, schizophrenia and collaborated. 

    Ian Stewart: Right. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: So that's a vi, that's a nice example of what Edge can do for you as an artist. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: What's his name? 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Uh, yeah, LIO. Gers. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That's it. Gers, Virginia. Gers. Mm-hmm. It's a very Italian German name. Yeah. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. Also, he studies psychology and works in a, um, psychiatric clinic.

    So there [01:09:00] he also has the, um, science part. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. So do you have any, so you've got scientists, uh, as outside artists. You've got inside artists, you also have any children or psychiatric patients. Those are the only two I'm missing right now here. 

    Ian Stewart: Um, there, we haven't had any children. We've, uh, we've also haven't had any children.

    Attendees. I've always kind of wanted to do stuff with schools. Mm-hmm. But, uh, you know, you kind of wanna develop that a bit because just inviting a bunch of school kids into a room sounds like a, it could be quite chaotic if you're not well prepared. Um, um, but, uh, we have, we've, we've had kind of a lot actually of interaction with, um, with like psychiatric patients with, with sort of mental, um, mental states, right?

    Aberrant mental states, alternative mental states, um, in that like the, the art that's kind of produced and that, that has been exhibited is discussing [01:10:00] or is made of different, um, states, right? Like different kind of con conditions, even diagnosed or, or just exploring like emotional depth and emotional states, um, including like.

    You know, from people whose research topics that is, or from people who are, are really expressing their own feelings and their own experiences. So we had, uh, um, one big motivation always being we're gonna humanize the scientists, right? We also had pieces, paintings by, by PhD student and master's students on, like, that they were kind of using the, they were producing these paintings as like a cathartic release actually.

    And then, and then we got the opportunity to, to have them exhibit it, you know, and like right. The painting about like the, the, the depths of, of kind of, you know, research induced despair and, and, and these kind of things. So, um, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: that was like half your [01:11:00] exhibition. 

    Ian Stewart: Um, we, you know, yeah, it was, it was a nice like little, little corner of it that you could kind of like do.

    And, um, we got, the defense was under 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: despair, 

    Ian Stewart: uh oh. Um. And actually, actually that was also, um, now I think about it, that was like a, one of the performance pieces we had right, was, um, with these dancers. So it was a dance troupe, um, that had formed around, um, three, like one, one of the dancers was a also medical neuroscience student, I believe.

    And, and their piece was on, um, schizophrenia or Alzheimer's, one of those, um, right. And, and that, and, and I think that was also informed by like personal experience, um, of a family member or, or something from, um, where I recall. So yeah. [01:12:00] Sorry, go ahead. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: No, yeah. In line with, um, alter Men mental states, uh, over the past year we established a collaboration with the Mind Foundation that's a scientific, um, like psycho psych, like a research institute on, uh, psychedelic science in Berlin.

    And, um, we also hosted our exhibition there in October. 

    Ian Stewart: Right. And, and they're using, they, so they, part of what they do as a foundation, they have a lot of wings, but part of what they do is, is, is running clinical trials on the use of psychedelic substances in, uh, psychiatric treatments. Right. And, and advocating for like a, you know, a kind of informed, um, relationship to psychedelics from society rather than like, you know, having the, the war on drugs still kind of trickle down.

    Um, but you know, they're like. [01:13:00] There you have another overlap of like, oh, what, you know, what is a psychedelic? And, and from a neuroscientific point of view, what is a psychedelic, but then it's like a clinical tool and it's kind of giving access into like understanding, you know, and, and so yeah, psychiatric, um, conditions have always been actually like a huge topic because it's, it's really humanist, I think as well.

    Like it's a huge, huge part or of, of a lot of the stories that people want to tell with art and, and it brings people together. So, um, I kind of, actually, that's one of the interactions we're gonna work with now, it that developed is, um, okay. Maybe this bit of, a bit of a tangent, but the, uh, there's, um, there's a, a kind of like a, a, a pop sign or a publisher that's coming out soon called Side Dip.

    SCI minus DIPI, I dunno if that's the final title. [01:14:00] But, um, and they, they write, so they publish kind of popular appeal articles and popular access articles of scientific research papers written by the lead author in like two, three paragraphs of, of like normal understandable English. Right. And, um, and you know, and so they have like a, a text contents platform now, and they approached us to say, oh, like we've seen what you're doing with, with art neuroscience and, you know, do you have kind of content that could accompany an article?

    Right? So, so their focus now in Ciip is gonna be on health, right? Um, and so they're gonna have, oh, you invite someone who just published a paper on, you know, like a, like a mental. Illness or, you know, a particular, um, finding Right. To then write it into [01:15:00] kind of normal English and then, and then we could, and then if it fits, we can accompany that with like a still of an art piece or a reference, or a video or, right.

    And, um, yeah, so, so we, I like how we went from outside of art to, um, plugging our new interaction. But, um, but um, you know, I think, I think neuroscience, you know, when we, when we said, okay, we're gonna do neuroscience, art, you know, we said that knowing that that doesn't really limit us because neuroscience is so ubiquitous in a way.

    Um, but knowing that it really actually connects us to people like, like it's so, so general interest. You know, um, and, and everyone has a brain, right? I think. Um, so, uh, you know, everyone, everyone kind of has, has a, a stake in understanding neuroscience.[01:16:00] 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, definitely. Um, shall we talk about the empirical aesthetics? 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Sure. Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Actually, uh, so as I, you know, said before we started recording, um, I saw that you did your bachelor's thesis already on your aesthetics. Yeah. So it seems like you've been doing this, like, like that's your thing. It seems almost, how did you, actually, before that, just one quick question.

    How did you decide to do cognitive science? Um, because, and then just, uh. I mean, I didn't know. I wouldn't have known what that would've been when I finished school. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah, good 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: question. Yeah. So how did you first get to cognitive science and then how to that topic in particular? 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah, so I wouldn't have known, um, I really liked neurobiology and biology classes in high school, and then I was [01:17:00] considering studying neuroscience, but at the time there were no neuroscience bachelor programs in Germany.

    So in going towards neuroscience, you would have to first like study either psychology medicine or biology or maybe something related. Um, and then I started to not only like Google neuroscience, but also like cognition. And then I stumbled upon the, um, cognitive science program in o and this is the like 

    Ian Stewart: okay, 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: one of two, um, bachelor programs you can study in Germany.

    But at the time I was also super interested in art and considering considered art to sort of study art. Uh, but I think at the time my parents said like, no, do something proper. Um, yeah. And then also time was flying because you had to like, uh, hand in the application. So I, I applied for cognitive [01:18:00] science because I didn't have a, like art map completed at the time.

    And I got accepted and then I started studying. And during the course of my bachelor's essay that I like, still wanted to. Do something with art and was like, wondering whether that was the right decision. And then it came to the time where I had to find a topic from a bachelor's thesis and found out about the field neuroaesthetics or empirical aesthetics.

    So I, I wrote a literature review looking at the, like prospects and limitations of the field at the time. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That's 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: correct. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Prospects and limitations of an emerging field. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That's the title. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. And then, um, I went to do an internship at the Association of Neuroaesthetics in Berlin, and then I found out about a pretty new master's program at the University of Potsdam called Cognitive Science and Body Cognition.

    Uh, so I applied there and I was the second [01:19:00] cohort there. And then while I was studying it, I, for not forgot, but I. Didn't like Edge so much with Neuroaesthetics anymore, um, until I came to the point where I had to find a topic of a master thesis. And so I applied for different, or like, I looked for different internships in empirical aesthetics or neuroaesthetics.

    And that's also when I found Edge because I was like goog, Googling all these terms, neuroscience, art. Um, so I wrote to Edge and met up with Ian, Tatiana and Amy and joined them in 2019. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Oh, so you didn't know them beforehand? This was really a 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: No, no. This is called also the story How I joined. So I just like emailed them, Hey, I like what you're doing.

    Do you need help? And then 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: can 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: I hang 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: out? 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. And then we soon started with the workshops and then the first exhibition for me, so it was the second for everyone came up and. Somehow it continued. Um, [01:20:00] yeah. And then I went to do an internship in Vienna and that's also the first time where I really experienced what, like an research process involves from like literature review to like actually testing participants and then analyzing the data and writing about it.

    'cause so like before everything was pretty theoretically theoretical in my studies and I really liked that. Like I really enjoyed, I was super motivated doing that. So, yeah. Just so 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: you really liked the topic or the theoretical aspect? 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: The scientific process, like researching and actually running experiments.

    But 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: you hadn't done that in your Bachelor's of Masters or 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: no? No. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Huh. Okay. I feel like I did that like all the time. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. Like parts of it or like little experiments, but maybe it was also different because it was like my project for my thesis. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, of course. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, and that's kind of interesting. It's, it's almost similar to [01:21:00]something that I did with music, just that it then, for random reasons and it differently.

    So I all like considered studying, uh, music, but then realized I'm probably not good enough to be like a concept pianist or something. So I should probably, and I don't wanna be like a teacher or anything. Um, so then I studied psychology and then when I was there, they happened, um, at my university they happened to have a few people studying perception of music.

    Um, and they had a big project there. And I said, Hey, like I, you know, want to do music, but now I'm doing psychology, like, this sounds great. Can I join? And like do something perfect. We're kind of full right now. Sorry, that was, that is, I mean, to be fair's probably good because I actually, apart from that one.

    Meeting I had, I don't think I ever really looked into some, I've never really been interested in studying music in the brain or something like that. It's somehow, again, separate things for me. Um, but yeah, it's, it's funny though, that had, 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: it sounds like a great fit, like similar to me and art and [01:22:00] then human music.

    Um, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah, just that it never panned out because 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: yeah. So neuroscience of music as a whole, whole field in itself. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. And I guess is actually, uh, does, would neuroscience of music be considered part of Neuroaesthetics or does that refer to something more specific or different? 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Oh, good question. I think it's also term and then neuroaesthetics, but yeah.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. So what, so as a, as I said, like I don't really know anything about Neuroaesthetics. You, you said a few sentences earlier, but like, can you give a brief outline of what. What is it? What are, what are people doing? Why? 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. Basically we are wondering what happens in your brain when you look at art. Um, mostly visual art.

    That's what I've been engaged with. But, um, there's also a lot of research on dance and performance and theater, movies. Um, yeah. And the field started off with looking at the like objective [01:23:00] attributes of visual art and how you perceive this and what you like more compared to other things. And, um, so the field really started off in the lab where you would like put people in the scanner and watch, like let them see images of art, like reproductions, photographs, and now what I wanna do and with it.

    Theater is going, is to bring that research into the, like actual art galleries and museums because the art experience you have with a reproduction in the scanner is probably very different to when actually standing in front of that, um, real artwork in the specific context, which also adds a lot to experience.

    And specifically in my, uh, like in the project I am doing my PhD in, we aim to capture like the different experiences you can have with art because presumably [01:24:00] you can have very different experiences with ads. So I guess a lot of times you'll see something and it doesn't really do anything. Maybe you find it boring or.

    To just like walk off. I think there's some research which says that on average you spend like 11 seconds with like, masterpieces of art and famous museums, but then experiences can also be like pretty nice and harmonious or maybe negative and you're like, ugh, doesn't do anything. I don't understand it stupid.

    Um, but then, um, most interestingly for psychology is when you have very like profound and intense experiences and when you're like standing in front of a piece and you're really like, wow, this does something to you. You're like, have probably a range of emotions going on and maybe you also like when you leave, experience some sort of change and impact on you.

    And that's what we're interested in. [01:25:00] Like how can art, like can art be transformational? Can it have an impact on you or not? And since this hasn't. Been like coherently, empirically captured. We try to capture all these experiment, uh, experiences by sending people into art, exhibitions, galleries, museums, and also, uh, at the street because, um, we also have a lot of public art in the cities and see what that does to people and create a network of different experiences.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, I 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: mean, that's the first step. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Well, I mean, one, I think that isn't it the reason they used visual art is just because it's easier to study than, you know, in installation where you have to be in the place. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So I always assume that like you use visual art and music just because that's very easy and 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: mm-hmm.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: You know, there's so much work on visual perception or your perception, that kind of stuff, that there's just a big basis. But so is, um. [01:26:00] 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah, this actually leads me to my like personal PhD topic, um, where I really wanna look at installation art because personally that's my favorite art field art kind. Um, because I think it, you experience it very differently compared to two dimensional dimensional artwork because you like enter the art piece and artists really create like a whole room or a whole experience for you.

    And there you also have the whole like embodied and an active aspect of your experience because you have to be physically present and we have to actively explore the piece to gain the experience. So I think that's very different com and interesting compared to a very visual experience, like an only visual experience.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, I'm wondering, I just realized that for me, the different kinds of art, I use them [01:27:00] for very different purposes. Mm-hmm. Um, or I experience stuff very differently through them. Uh, so for example, like, uh, music for me is almost always a fairly directly emotional experience and it's not, I don't start thinking about my life that much when I listen to music per se, as opposed to if I, for example, read a novel or something.

    Mm-hmm. Um, so I'm just, I dunno whether that's just the way I use it, but I'm also curious then, like if you do so I'm actually, I don't know whether I've ever really been in an installation or like experienced it much. So what is the, what, I mean, this is a very broad question for what do people use installations for or what do you like?

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. Installation, you spec 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: find in, 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: usually add works on a room scale, but I think here the definition is also quite fluid. Um.

    Yeah, like [01:28:00] usually these are pieces that you can physically enter. Um, yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. Yeah. But like, what do you want to, I mean, as you said, uh, I think before we started recording, you are half a year into this thing, so it's not exactly a finished research project yet. No, no. But like what do you, uh, 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: yeah, I wanna see, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I'm not even sure like, what would the experiment be or what, like what would you ask people?

    Or would you ask them anything? Or how would you record your data? Yeah. Like I have no idea. Like what, what, what you would be doing really. Yeah. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Like methods could be movement tracking, eye tracking. And then the main part are behavioral questionnaires where you would ask people about their experience and see what they're experiencing.

    And this would also happen with other art pieces. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. And then the point is to, sorry to compare them or to like, 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: yeah. And see whether there's a coherent picture or not. And then of course, um, referring back to [01:29:00] your experience with music versus novel, um, of course there are a lot of individual differences.

    So maybe a person who has experience in art or trained in art, uh, have a different experience than someone not trained in that field. Right? Yeah, yeah. Or someone who's generally open to experiences has a different experience than someone who's not. So of course all these measures are interesting. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 

    Ian Stewart: I wonder how you can really quantify art experience.

    You know, this is something I've, I've dragged cocoa into other conversations before, um, with people just to be like, oh, like we need cocoa here to kind of weigh in on this. Um, which, um, you know, is, uh, I, I look forward to, to, um, you being a, a, a fully qualified doctor where I can then, then actually say we need Dr.

    Kuna. Like, come in here [01:30:00] 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: just to clarify the situation for us, or basically just Yeah. Confirm your point. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. I think what, what you want me to do is like, stand in front of an art piece and tell me what experiences people are gonna have with it. But I think it's not that we wanna describe experience for one specific artwork and tell that they are probably the same for everyone or something like that, but to rather see what people, what experiences people can have in general with.

    Art and not to explain away like one specific artwork, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: but then what would you, I'm assuming that people can experience lots of different things 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: definitely 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: in artwork. So what would you expect to find other than a lot, like, you know, people can experience lots of things. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. Like emotions, for example. Um, and then one idea, one approach is to group them into categories.

    So for example, [01:31:00] like the data we have so far hint that, that there are, um, like not responses or nothing happens. Then there are these like harmonious nice experiences. Then the negative reactions and then the transformative ones. So for example, these four groups could be outcomes and I. Ideally, ideally in the end.

    So, I mean, we have a lot of museums around the world and like every city we have some, and the question is like, why do we have them? So presumably they do something good to us and they maybe provoke different thinking, maybe they provoke reactions that make us feel good. Um, so in the end, hopefully this project like will bring these results to like policy holders, um, art theory, education and stakeholders.

    And then, um,[01:32:00] 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: uh, am I on or, 

    Ian Stewart: uh, it looks like she froze. Oh, she froze. Midpoint. Oh no. Um, um. Here you go. She's coming back. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Oh yeah. There you are. Yeah, you were gone. Completely. Uh, anyway, so we were talking about, or Coco was talking about, uh, creating reasons for why we need art or something, some sort of policy. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Oh, like, yeah.

    Ideally the data we are collecting could lead to some argument why art is important at the individual level or the societal level. So, I mean, us at the individual level, I think art could be beneficial or nice for like health, mental health, um, not only the like viewing art, but also the making art. And then on the [01:33:00] societal level, when we look at contemporary art.

    Like, um, Ola, um, art pieces, um, who hinted like climate change and, um, awareness on environmental issues or like Yeah. Topics like that. Um, this is where art comes into play and eventually gives access to topics via art to the public. For example, he had this one, um, exhibition where he put like giant ice cubes in front of the Tate in London to hinted climate change and the matting ice caps, caps.

    So this is just an example what art can do. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Could do. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: He seems like an interesting, I think there was some documentary I watched about him recently. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Mm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Can't remember what, what it was. And it makes me like, I was in London when, I think when he [01:34:00] had all of those, the, the sun and all that kind of stuff.

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Oh yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: This is very famous visited 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: project. Yeah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah, exactly. But in hindsight's like, oh, I should have just gone. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. And then, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: but I don't think I knew about it at the time. So, I 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: mean, this exhibition also is a nice example what art can do to people. Because in this like huge, um, hall, I think people like started to lay down.

    Under the sun and, and stuff and engage with each other. So I think it's interesting how people react and behave in front of art, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: especially I think that was something that he didn't intend. Right. I think he didn't really, or not like intend, but he didn't expect that people would behave in such varied ways.

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: In that, sorry, 

    Ian Stewart: he, he didn't think that English people would sunbathe, is that? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, they all got sunburn. Terrible. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: TOS in London, so it was probably no English people there anyway. It's just tourists 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: maybe. [01:35:00] 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah.

    Okay. Uh, I think I've, I've run out of my detailed list of questions. Yeah. Uh, I dunno whether any of you have any closing words, any wisdoms to part. 

    Ian Stewart: I, I mean, yeah, there's something I think that bridges edge in neuroscience, uh, sorry, neuroaesthetics, um, you know, and I, I mean, I, before I, I managed to mute myself every single time I coughed, except for that last time.

    Um, but anyway, so, okay, so, okay, so correct me if I'm wrong, but, but Neuroaesthetics is, is like trying to find the method to, to study like the effect of art upon an individual, right? 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah, yeah, 

    Ian Stewart: yeah. Um, and I think, I think, you know, one of the things that we've kind of run into, um, doing science art [01:36:00] is that, that, uh, you know, scientists in particular will, will, uh, have an.

    And I, I mean lots of people do this, but scientists in particular, because I think they're under a lot of time pressure and they have like kind of really strong ideas about like, you know, what they're doing and, and how they have to do it and how they have to perform and you know, like what's they kind of like, I think a lot of them have kind of radicalized themselves into like, oh, you know, this is, this is my set of interests and I'm gonna do this.

    They, they kind of dismiss the idea of, of. Of science, art as being a bit like, like non, uh, non useful or, or, or fluffy, or, or at least on a personal level, they don't really understand why they would engage with it. Right? Like, I remember overhearing comments from, you know, colleagues or, or, or, uh, you know, people whose, whose focus is research, scientific [01:37:00] research, like on, on science, art pieces.

    Like, well, why would you bother doing that? Right? And these kind of things. And, and I've always kind of wanted to like to, to take. Coco's neuro set expertise and like, and use it to like vindicate, science, art, you know, once and for all. Like, like, like here's empirical evidence that, you know, this is, is is not only good for you and good for your thinking process and good for your research.

    Right. Critically, if we can prove somehow. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. I 

    Ian Stewart: mean that art experience is good for your research then. Yeah. Um, we 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: should definitely speak about study possibilities with our exhibitions and other science art pieces exhibited there. Yeah. 

    Ian Stewart: Yeah. Right. Like. Yeah. Do you, I mean, I mean, sometimes people can only be convinced by numbers.

    Right? And, and then, and, [01:38:00] and how do you put numbers to the 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: value? Especially the scientists who are skeptic about the effect will probably then rather believe the numbers. 

    Ian Stewart: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: We have to be careful here. It sounds like there's a very strong motivation to find a particular finding. 

    Ian Stewart: Oh, right. Okay. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: That that's true.

    Yes. 

    Ian Stewart: That's 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: kind of true. This is this, this is starting to sound like very hopeful. Specific. 

    Ian Stewart: Okay. Yeah. 

    Yeah. 

    Ian Stewart: So, so we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna put Coco in in a room, and then she's gonna write numbers down until we get the right ones. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Exactly. 

    Ian Stewart: Um, uh, no, but I think. I mean, I mean, I think, I think this is, this is the time to do this in, in, in science and in society, right?

    We've got this, this crisis of mental health and PhD students, you know, and we've got, we've got a crisis of the, of the public being detached from science, you know, and, and, and under both of these is kind of the question of, okay, can we continue, can we [01:39:00] just carry on more of the same? Like, is it, is it working or, or a problem starting to arise from, from our relationship to, to science as like, you know, as a, as an institution and as a, as an ideology or, or like a drive or a lifestyle, but also like in the, the, the structures that it is and, and the process that it is and the mechanisms, right.

    You know, is it really sustainable to kind of put. Science and scientists and students right through the same process that it's been kind of like, it's like accidentally evolved into, I feel like, I don't know if anyone's really sat down and said, oh, this is the optimal way to do science. I feel like we've just inherited that.

    Right. And then, and then, you know, if you kind of want to introduce other methodologies and you kind of want to introduce stuff, like actually maybe it's a really good idea for science, for, for students to make art about their science. Maybe it's a really good idea for, for professors to [01:40:00] hold art exhibitions about their research.

    Right. You know, you, I feel like you kind of, you have to now like justify how to why. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. Yeah. 

    Ian Stewart: Right. And, and that's where Neuroaesthetics maybe comes in. And, and I've always had this kind of selfish, um, but also very much like, um, in, in kind of, you know, inspired, like hopeful attitude to neuroaesthetics for that.

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Hmm. Yeah, it would be different. Definitely interesting to see like what people take out of the exhibitions, whether they actually gain some understanding about concepts or whether that does something with them once they leave. 

    Ian Stewart: Yeah. Yeah. And Sorry, go ahead Ben. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, I mean, I just had a very quick point here.

    I would also interested to see why people go, like what they hope from getting outta it in the first place, right? 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Definitely. Yeah. Like what their, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: their 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: motivations. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean a lot of people probably just be going 'cause well have a look, right? It'll be like a very open and not even having any [01:41:00] particular kind of expectations almost.

    Um. Then there'll be other people who'd be, you know, I wanna look at this piece for the next hour or something. Yeah, 

    Ian Stewart: I mean, I usually just go to impress someone that I'm taking. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: It's like, oh, and then you like say pseudo intelligent stuff. Artwork. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. I think at least the pieces we exhibited at our exhibitions, they have also a lot of factors that contribute to an experience.

    So just the fact that you can speak to the artist, maybe have some video or text by it, maybe you can actually experience the piece you're safe. For example, we had some EG, um, installation performance pieces where you could like actually take, put on an EEG and then engage in the art piece. Um, so that would be interesting to see how all these factors where you can like actually participate or experience the piece more directly.

    Um, yeah. How, what that, [01:42:00] that does to your experience. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay, cool. I think if, unless you do have anything you want to add, I think, we'll, we will keep that as the final word. Yeah. 

    Ian Stewart: The website's good. Um, please check us out. Uh, we have a website, edge minus Neuro Do Art 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: by the way. I'll put all the, like, links in the description.

    Excellent. So there'll be like Twitter and or website. 

    Ian Stewart: Yeah. 'cause we are, we're everywhere. So, so, um, you know, come find us, um, Instagram, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: YouTube. 

    Ian Stewart: Yeah. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: And especially check out the virtual exhibition and then you can really see what we're speaking about. The Explore Yourself. 

    Ian Stewart: Yeah. That, that one's free. Um, next one's gonna be ticketed, but not if you remember, but maybe if you remember.

    But, um, I know we, um. You know, we, we, we don't make, we don't really even cut a profit as a [01:43:00]group, right. A lot of this is just understanding that this is, this is worth doing. And, uh, and a lot of encouragement from people from all kinds of backgrounds telling us that they think this is worth doing and that, you know, and, and that it's exciting and that we'll do more of it.

    So, so stay tuned for, for hopefully much, much, much more for a long, long, long time. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Well, that's a, that's a, that's a lot more, much, much, much more. 

    Ian Stewart: Yeah. 

    Corinna Kühnapfel: Yeah. That's a nice, nice ending. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay, then I think I'll then just stop recording now.