In episode 42 I interviewed Matthias Stangl about his work on spatial navigation. I wanted to ask him a few questions about postdoc applications, but we ran out of time. Matthias kindly agreed to meet again for a few questions that I would add to the end of our conversation. We ended up speaking for almost an hour, so instead of adding this to an episode that was already more than an hour long, we decided to release this part of our conversation as a separate episode for people who might also be applying for postdocs.
Podcast links
Website: https://geni.us/bjks-pod
Twitter: https://geni.us/bjks-pod-twt
Matthias's links
Google Scholar: https://geni.us/stangl-scholar
Twitter: https://geni.us/stangl-twt
Ben's links
Website: https://geni.us/bjks-web
Google Scholar: https://geni.us/bjks-scholar
Twitter: https://geni.us/bjks-twt
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[This is an automated transcript with many errors]
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: [00:00:00] Okay, so the last topic I want to talk about is basically getting a postdoc position. So to maybe set the scene of where I'm coming from with this question is that I've got about, or pretty much exactly, yeah, exactly. 14 months, um, left of my PhD contract and after that I'll be unemployed, but hopefully I have a PhD and can apply for postdoc positions.
Yeah, to maybe set the scene a bit more. Obviously I'm not asking you as like a world leading expert on postdoc applications, um, but more as a kind of, uh, let's say. The metaphor might be like an older brother, someone who's like one step ahead of me in this whole process, and who can, you know, who's, who's seen a few things, knows a few people, and can maybe give some advice here.
So, um, maybe we can start by talking about how you got your position, because it seems like that was, uh, I, I dunno what the process was [00:01:00] like of getting a physician, but it seems like, uh, you're pretty happy with what you're doing and. Who you're doing it with and where, and that kinda stuff. So how did, yeah, maybe I'll just ask very broadly, how did you get your position.
Matthias Stangl: I, yeah, no, it's a, it's a very good question. I think it's also a very important question because for everybody who, you know, like looks for a PhD position or a postdoc, I think it's pretty much very, very similar process. So it's just, it's just a very important thing that you choose your, your lab wisely, and it's kind of, um, I'm happy to talk about that.
And, and, and yes, as you said, for me. It was a very positive experience. And part of this is, you know, maybe I was just lucky, but also I, I, I like to think that it was not just luck because what I, what I, what I did and what I would, you know, recommend to anyone is I, I try to do like a more, like a systematic approach and, and really think about, uh, how to choose it and try to follow my kind of system.
So I, what, what, what [00:02:00] I did is, I mean,
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: or maybe can I, one other question before maybe, um. 'cause at least to me, this seems like a relevant factor that might be worth explaining kind of where you were at the time. So from what I can tell is the publications you have when you apply for stuff is important.
You know, if you have great publications, then it's probably easier to get a position than if you have nothing. Um, so when you applying for positions. Yeah. Did you really have publications? What were which ones?
Matthias Stangl: Yeah, it's, it's interesting because I, I do have, um, a few really, I would say really, really good publications from my PhD where I'm, you know, like, I think it's, it's good work and, um, I'm happy about this.
But the interesting thing is when I, when I started applying for postdoc positions and applying, in my case, this wasn't a very long period. I, I, I actually just sent emails to a couple of people and asked them to meet at as a fan, um, which was an in-person conference at the time. Um, so, and hopefully it's gonna be again soon.
But anyway, [00:03:00] so I, I just sent emails to. Few people. And, um, at this time I did not have public. I, I did have one publication, which was in Frontiers, and it's not even like a, a very empirical work because this was, this was more like from the technical background that I have, I, I had programmed like a toolbox, um, for like a little bit more complex analysis that like this grid cell, like representation analysis.
So, so this, this, this really was the only publication,
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: but, so I mean, you had publications from before your PhD, right?
Matthias Stangl: Oh yeah, that's true.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I guess that was a bit different because that was more like
Matthias Stangl: Yeah.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: From a technical side rather than as a scientist or,
Matthias Stangl: yes, correct. Uh, so the publications that I had when I was applying for a postdoc position were, you know, either from like a different field that wasn't like super relevant for what I wanted to do in my postdoc.
Or it was this one publication, which was, you know, in the spatial navigation area. It was great select representations, but this was really like a technical thing. It [00:04:00] basically was like a software product that I had a, we had, um, developed. So I did not, you know, send an email out to these people saying, oh, well look at my publication list.
I was, I was really, um. Saying like, okay, this is what I have done. This is what I can do, you know, technical background combined with like empirical, empirical focus. And, and, and I also said like what I want to do, um, and how this would fit with, um, you know, what the lab is doing. So I really knew what these labs are doing and I basically kind of gave them an outline of my potential role in their lab.
Right. I did, I, it could be different maybe for others, but I did not have the impression that that kind of not having high impact or whatever kind of, uh, publications, I, I didn't feel that this was a problem because I got, um, very positive feedback. In the end. I was very lucky to be able to even choose the postdoc position that I, that I ended up.[00:05:00]
Taking So, so, and, and all of this, you know, was before I had this, you know, current biology paper before I had the nature communications paper before all of that. So that, um, yeah. So that was very good. But I
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: guess just, I mean, yeah, I think it's, it's maybe important to say that it's not, you know, your career isn't over if you haven't published during your, during your PhD.
Matthias Stangl: Yeah, no, I, I don't think so at all. And one thing maybe also to say is, um, you know, it. Maybe even like, obviously it's good if you have publications, but you know, if you have, if you have like a PI or an advisor who you know, like is known in the field and this, this person might, you know, just reach out to, to others and, and tells them like, okay, well, you know, this guy, or, or he, or she's like, really?
Really able And yeah, there are no publications, um, but you know, they will come or they're not there for this and that reason. But, you know, it, I think it's just more important to show what you can do and if, if you have [00:06:00] someone like your advisor who maybe writes your letter or reaches out to people, um, I think that can more than enough compensate for, you know, maybe not having, having one or two publications more.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, I guess it's also. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm assuming also it's, you might not have had the publications, but you already had projects that were developed enough that you could show that you knew what you were doing, right? Yes. It's not like I have these like five dreams. I wanna, you know, I'm kind of working on these things and it's clear that there's nothing there.
I'm assuming you are the two papers the, or like the two high impact papers at least you got from your PhD. I'm assuming it was already clear that once you talked to. Potential, uh, employers or supervisors about it? It was, they're like, okay, yeah, he's, there's something here. Like,
Matthias Stangl: yes. And obviously if you get to that stage, you know you're gonna talk with them in more detail about like, uh, what you have done or what you wanna do.
And then I was, I was able to, you know, like really present stuff, which wasn't published. But obviously [00:07:00] yes. I, I, um, I had enough to show them because yeah, as you said, these projects were already developed and some of them were even like, um, submitted at this point already. It was just not accepted and published, but I had enough to, to talk about.
And just very recently, NAIA Na also told me, I, I wasn't aware of this, but she said like, oh yeah. The most impressive thing for her, or, or like, or one very impressive thing for her was like, I was really prepared. Like I, we, we just met informally at SFN. Like I sent her an email and she said, she said like, oh yeah, let's meet.
And um, I had a presentation on my lap. To, I, I didn't, you know, like, kind of force her to, to, to look at this, but I asked her like, yeah, you know, like, I can't tell you what I've done. I have a presentation here, show you a few things. And then I, I really, I gave kind of a presentation, but in a more like, um, we just.
Chatting about it. Um, but I had stuff prepared and so she, she seemed to really [00:08:00] like that. And it is, you know, this I think is like, yeah, I hadn't had published that at this time, but I could really show her that this is, this is cool stuff, you know, so, so I, I think this is what, what convinced her. And, and I did the same thing with, um, with other people I met.
So, and, and, um, it seemed to have worked really well.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, one thing that what you said reminded me of is that, I mean, so maybe one thing, like I've been in quite a lot of different labs, maybe just to say that up front. So, uh, lots of them aren't on my cv, so this could be any of them. Um, and I mean, it's not really a negative thing, but I don't wanna like, you know, talk about anyone's application process or these kind of things.
But I was once in a lab where the PI really struggled to get a good postdoc. And the interesting thing is then we met with some of the. Applicants. And with a lot of them, I, I wasn't even sure whether they knew who the PI was or like what the group was doing. I was really shocked [00:09:00] how, I mean, this were often, or some of them were, I think I, I'm assuming people I can't evaluate, but I'm assuming people who, who technically what they were doing, but sometimes I was really, they're like, do they even know?
Like what the lab does. And I was really, uh, and I guess if you then come up with like a presentation and say like, look, here's what I'm gonna do in your lab and how it fits in, then yeah. I mean, that's gonna be a huge advantage, I'd imagine.
Matthias Stangl: Yeah, yeah. No, it's definitely something that I would recommend to, you know, like, know who you're talking to and then be prepared.
It doesn't need to be, you know, like a presentation in that sense. But, um, definitely you wanna know. Who you're talking to, you wanna know. Um,
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: and I guess
Matthias Stangl: also make that clear what they've found before. Yes.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: You know, I guess this should come up naturally in a conversation anyway, but if it doesn't, then somehow make it clear that you've read the papers and know like specifically why you are.
Matthias Stangl: Yes, of course. I mean, I mean, I guess for me it seems [00:10:00] like a very good way to do that is, you know, maybe you don't wanna say, oh yeah, I have read all your papers since they're really good. May the. Even better way would be to, you know, like say, okay, here, here is what I can do and this is how it would kind of fit into your lab.
Like what we could do together. You know, like, I would love to build upon what you have done and, and obviously show that you know what they have done by saying, okay, I wanna expand on this, or, you know, like. Just move this one step further so it, at the end of the day, I also have the impression that you might end up doing something very different because when you're in the lab, it's a different story.
You know, there might be someone who is already working on this or something like that, but, but it's just really good if you can show you know, what they're doing and you can show that. You've made up your own mind, like how your own work would, would kind of, um, fit with kind of what they're doing currently or what they have done in the past.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So how specific were the things that you [00:11:00] suggested or, you know, it's not like saying, I'm gonna do this in your lab, but, uh, you know, I guess you said like, here's some ideas. I have some things I want to do that fit with the stuff that the lab was already doing. So like, how specific were. The suggestions or projects or ideas you had when you came to it?
Was it often, I dunno, was it fairly vague? Like, or was it very specific? Like, here's the question and you know, you already knew like what the, what the first experiment was gonna be or, yeah.
Matthias Stangl: Mm-hmm.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: How, how kinda specific was that in your case?
Matthias Stangl: Yeah, that's a, it's a good question and I have to say, so I, I talked with a couple of people when I, when I was looking for postdoc jobs.
It was very different. So the extent to what these people would expect me to have, like a specific plan was very different. Um, so I think honestly this, this depends a lot on like the mentality of, of the potential advisor also. So my ideas were, you know, like not planned to a level of, you know, this is [00:12:00] what I wanna do exactly.
And I have this, you know, paradigm in mind and so on. It was more like a, like a brainstorming stage where you are like, okay, you have done this and this is really exciting. You, you wanna show that you know, you, you like this kind of work and you, because I mean, otherwise, you know, you shouldn't even apply at this job.
Yeah. For this job. So you want to just make it clear. That you find that very interesting and that you have ideas and that you can develop ideas for a, that, that, you know, can be merged and, um, with what they are interested in. And so, um, for me, this was always at a, at a brainstorming level where I said like, okay, this kind of.
Paper was really interesting. I would like to, you know, like bring this to, you know, like more the navigation context, add this and that. Or we could use, we, we, we could look at, you know, what grid cells are doing in this. Some, something like that, but not, not really planned to a level of detail so that it's kind of a ready to go project.
But also I will say that. There [00:13:00] were so, so I had also conversations with people who I believe wanted to hear more. So, um, I, I think it's just very different. I guess it also depends, you know, if somebody has, like, looks for, is looking for a postdoc who is then just. Supposed to do like a project for which there is already funding, and they know exactly what they, what they want to do, then, you know, like your own ideas, they might be good, but at the same time, they have a very specific role in mind that they want you to fill.
But then there are other, there are other PIs who really look for postdocs and give them a lot of freedom, um, and stuff. So, so there it might be maybe more helpful. If you have like a very specific, like, clear direction that, that you are interested in and, and, and give them like a more sense of what exactly you want to do.
So I think it, I think it's, it's just really hard to say. It's something you probably also have to just feel out when you're talking with them. Um, but definitely having [00:14:00] a plan in mind, um, doesn't hurt at all.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's a good point you made that. Wait, what was the point? Yeah, that, that some positions are specific to a project and they almost want someone to just do the thing that's already like, laid out for them.
Yes. And in other cases is, is, I mean, I've heard of some people who, uh, might even have been published on the episode, but I'm not sure. Anyway, uh, you know, I had a conversation with one person who said, uh, they arrived at the PO postdoc position, and then the first day the PI said, so what do you wanna do?
Matthias Stangl: Yeah,
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: and you know, some is super op, some are super open and some are like very much like I've got two years to do this experiment. Do it, please.
Matthias Stangl: Yeah, I mean, I guess it's, it's, it's something that is hard to to know beforehand and, um, maybe, maybe, um, if you have kind of connections, it's good to, you know, like find this out.
Uh, maybe by your, your current advisor or maybe, maybe some con or, or, or maybe you, you know, somebody in [00:15:00] the lab, which is obviously the best case scenario. But if you don't, you, you should be prepared to kind of, if you really want. To be in this lab, um, you should be prepared to, you know, like basically fill both of these roles potentially, you know, like on the one hand develop new, new ideas and be able also to present that in a meeting.
Um, but maybe also. Be prepared to, you know, like meet the person who, who already knows what they want you to do. So both I, I know that both can happen and, um, you just have to, you, you also have to make up your own mind before, um, if you would be fine with, you know, like being told, yeah, this is the project.
I want you to do this because if not, then you know, it's not a bad thing. It's just then this is probably not the right lab.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I think this is something that I have to be very careful with because I'm not very good at executing someone else's plans. Sometimes I struggle executing my own plans.
Matthias Stangl: I think we all do.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: [00:16:00] Yeah. But the, um, yeah, I mean, I think I basically need a post. I mean, I have a PhD supervisor who gave me lots of freedom. And um, in some sense it's also partly somewhat illusionary because I think we have very similar interests, so that makes it easier for him to give me freedom knowing that, you know, I'm more or less gonna do what he's interested in anyway.
So, yeah, I think that's, for example, for me, that's probably something I need to really pay attention to because. If I don't have a supervisor gives me freedom. I just don't think it's gonna be a good fit. Um,
Matthias Stangl: yes.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah,
Matthias Stangl: I, I, I a hundred percent agree. And the thing is, there is even more to that. I, I feel the same like you do, you know, obviously sometimes it feels like it could be easier if somebody just tells you what to do, but then, but then at the same time, you have to, you have to consider one more thing and that's.
Eventually you probably want to, or maybe you want to be like a pi yourself, right? And then if you haven't, like learned to, you know, like develop your own ideas or to, to even have ideas and, and, [00:17:00] and know how to, I dunno, squeeze them out or whatever. And, um, and, and if you just following some someone else's ideas or maybe even just execute projects that have been designed even without you, then you might not.
Really know how to do this, to do this. You might not learn this carefully how to do it. So, um, I personally think if you, if you want to end up like having your own lab and be a PI yourself, then um, it's probably the better thing to look for a postdoc position where you get that freedom to, you know, like.
Obviously within the scope of, of, of, um, your advisor, but to develop your own ideas to, you know, find out, to make mistakes at the design level and to kind of correct it and not just get something and executed. I think that that's, like if you look towards the future of, of like being in academia, I think it's just very important to not just execute someone else's plans.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, [00:18:00] I mean, what I've noticed as you know, PhD students who had a fair amount of freedom is that the hardest part for me is like really deciding. I guess because research projects often take a lot of time to do, deciding what to do is much more important almost than, I mean, how you're doing it, but Right.
Like if you're doing a project that's gonna take you like six to six months to two years or whatever, you really have to be sure that that's something worth doing. Yes. And I think, for example, I've done a fair amount of side projects in my PhD, probably too many. And that's, I think, something, for example, that I've really learned like a kind of don't, yeah, don't like, be careful for, for what you start almost.
And I think that's. Part of the learning process of like doing your own projects. Um, how, as I said, I've got exactly 14 months. 14 months left. Um, how early did you start contacting people, looking for people? I mean, was it clear for you? For example, you had like three people who were like, yeah, I'm gonna contact them, and I I hope one of them works out because they're, they're perfect or whatever from the outside.
Mm-hmm.
Matthias Stangl: I [00:19:00] see.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, was it very much, uh, or maybe I'll use my example again here, just as a, as a starting point or something to riff on. I kind of know which direction I wanna go fairly clearly. I mean, it's a, lots of things could fall under that umbrella tone, but I kind of know fairly much what on to do.
But right now I don't have a specific person where I'd say like, okay, this seems like a perfect fit, or whatever. Yeah. So like how far, like, how, for example, how long does it take for these application processes? And
Matthias Stangl: so, huh, I have to think about this. So I, I don't. Yeah. No, no, no. It comes back. So, yeah, no, I think I started applying really early, but again, I didn't formally apply, you know?
Um, I would, I was at a stage where I knew, okay, I, um, I'm probably gonna be ready to, you know, like leave the PhD Nest kind of maybe. In say, a year or something, or maybe, maybe, maybe. [00:20:00] I was thinking it's gonna be six months, but turned out to be a year, something like that. So, uh, so I think, I think it was like, maybe I, I felt like, okay, I'm gonna be ready Summer.
Yeah. I, I, I thought I'm gonna be ready summer next year. And so I started applying like, um, six months before. And this six months before, um, it was, it was really just, you know, this was, yeah, I, I felt I would finish in summer and so SFN came up, I think in November, the year before I wanted to, to finish.
And so I thought, okay, I'm, so this is gonna be a good opportunity to, you know, like talk to people because next SFN is like a year later and SFN is just this. Big thing, or was this big thing where you just meet so many people also, you know, from basically all countries, um, also the US and, and everything.
So, so this for me was a good opportunity and I didn't just wanna wait for the next one because that might've been too late. So I, I was reaching out to them like, say six, seven. Month before I wanted [00:21:00] to, to be done. And, um, I just sent emails. Um, I, I, I think I attached my cv, but basically I was just, um, you know, explaining who I am and these kind of things.
And then, yeah, I, I think literally everybody responded and said that, yeah, let's meet. But this was very informal, you know, like, um,
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah, yeah,
Matthias Stangl: just, yeah, that's me at Starbucks.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Did they have jobs or did you just say, these are like people I'm interested in? I'll just contact them, like, yeah. Did they have positions or was it just.
Matthias Stangl: I have no idea. I, I, so, I mean, I, I can explain a bit more how I, how I kind of narrowed down the kind of pool of, of, of labs if, if that's maybe helpful. So. Mm-hmm. Definitely that's something where I try to, to be quite systematic. I would. I would say, um, so, and, and I'm hoping that this might be helpful for others.
Um, mm-hmm. Maybe, so first of all, I, I think there are just things that, that you can easily find out, right? So, so, which is, uh, first of all, you, you should, you should ask yourself like, what, what are you interested in? [00:22:00] But I think at the level after your PhD, um, that should be pretty obvious. Like, okay, you wanna start a postdoc and work on something that you're interested in.
Um, but. That just first of all narrows down the, the, the possibilities of where of labs that you want or you could apply. Again, I didn't look at at open positions or anything. I really just basically said, okay, these are, these are, these are all the labs that I would be interested in. I even wrote down a list of labs whenever I heard like a talk somewhere or whatever, and I heard like, oh, they're working on stuff that sounds interesting.
I just wrote down the lab and the PI's name just to, to have this list, and I built this during my PhD. And so
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah. You mean like to not start from zero Exactly. Before going like, oh God, I don't know. Yeah,
Matthias Stangl: exactly. So then, then when I kind of was nearing the end of my PhD, I had this list of people where, where I knew, okay, they, they are doing interesting work that, that might be interesting for me.
And then, yeah, you kind of narrow this down based [00:23:00] on what you really want to do and, and also take other things into, into consideration for, of course, you know, like personal things like where do you wanna live and, and all of that. But also, you know. A very important thing is also like, what kind of methods do they use?
What kind of opportunities do they give you in terms of, you know, what university is it, what, what kind of equipment do they have? Do they have like just e, EG, but do you want to do f and right. These kind of things. But, but that's, that's pretty, that's pretty obvious. So that's, that's very easy to find out.
Right. Um, but then there are other things that are much harder to find out, but I, I really focused on this stuff, so, so, um, and this is. I really wanted to, you know, um, look at the, at the people that I, that I'm supposed to work with. And I think this is an incredibly important thing because there may be very good scientists in your research area and you know, like on my list of people that I had, that I had created during my PhD list of people who are doing.
Cool science, interesting [00:24:00] things. You know, there, there might be many really good scientists, but also if you, if you're like me, you really want to work with. People who are not only good scientists, but also much more than that, you know, who, uh, you know, it's very important that they are good mentors or good managers really, um, who understand, you know, like how to collaborate, um, with, with others and put together teams of people that are, that are both really good, really able to, to, to do this kind of work, but also who are, who are nice and, and, and easy to work with.
Um, you want to work with people who are. Teachers, right? Even at the postdoc stage, you, you have to learn a lot of stuff and you want, you want to work with people who can teach you that kind of stuff. So, and these kind of things are much harder to find out than, um, just, you know, what they are working on and if they have like, high impact publications and things.
So for me, honestly, my main task, obviously, first of all, you see, okay, these [00:25:00] labs are interesting. They have good publications. That, and they are, you know, like in the, in the right country, whatever you're interested in. So that's, that, that's the first step. But then I, I, I made it kind of my main task to, to really get a feeling of, um.
How is this person? And then, um, when you maybe get invited to the lab or you give a talk to like, how are the people there in this lab, maybe even beyond the lab in this institute? This to me is such an important thing and I think it's kind of underrated because it, it's almost like you applying somewhere and you, you know, um, there are maybe like, I dunno, 25 other people who apply for the same position.
Do you feel like, oh, please, you know, please give me a job. But I think it's super important to kind of see it from the other way around and, and feel like, okay, do I, do I want to work in this lab? Do I want to work with this person and with these people? And it's not, it's not super easy to find out, but you definitely get a feeling when you, when you're [00:26:00] there, when you talk with the pi, um, when you talk.
So try also to talk with as many people from this lab as possible. Maybe, maybe also good advice is to talk with people who have been at this who, who were at this lab and are not anymore because they maybe not feel any, so they can be more open. Maybe even So did
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: you have to do that, like contact people?
Matthias Stangl: I didn't contact people specifically, but I, I, um, I was talking with people who I knew, you know, also, again from like conferences and stuff, so if you, if you just, you don't need to send them emails or so, um, but if you see there are people from this lab at a conference like I, I, at S FN for example, I knew that there were like.
Three people I would be interested in, you know, like working in their labs. And I went to the posters of this group and I didn't know, I didn't know them, or some of them I did, some of them I didn't know, but I just went to them. And then you start chatting with them and, and really take your time to get a feeling of, you know, also how they are and [00:27:00] what they might or may not say about their, about their PIs.
And this is, this is the information that I think to me is. It's harder to get, but it's at least equally important, um, than, you know, publications and being good scientists because it's, it's not gonna be enough. You, you will spend a lot of time there. You want to learn something there. Um, so you really want to make sure that, um, that it's gonna be a good experience.
Because, yeah, there's just so many other things to that.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, I agree. And I think one thing that's maybe important to bear in mind is that there are loads of great scientists who are also great people and
Matthias Stangl: absolutely
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: great supervisor and all that kinda stuff. So it's not like it's this thing where you're looking for like one in a million or something.
There's. I think yeah. As soon as you basically start talking to the PIs and the people in the group, it becomes fairly clear, I think, fairly quickly.
Matthias Stangl: Yes.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: What it's like. But if, yeah, if you don't do that, then there's also lots of PIs who aren't [00:28:00] maybe that great. Yeah. Um, as mentors or whatever. Right. Maybe they're great people, but they're just not great mentors or whatever.
Matthias Stangl: Exactly. It's, again, it's, it's not easy to find that out, but, um, the best thing is really talk with as many people as possible, talk with. The advisor as often as possible. And also try to, you know, like be open and, and see if they, if they open, ask all kinds of questions that you have. And I, I, you know, again, maybe I was just lucky, but I really like to think that this is what, um, what brought me where I am now.
Because like, again, NAIA and the whole lab really like this is everything's just. Uh, it's, it's really a pleasure to be there, to work there, um, because of the people, because of everybody's really good, but everybody's also really nice and helpful and everybody collaborates, and so you want to get a feeling.
Yeah. And, and as you said, like these labs. Exist, but you have to kind of [00:29:00] work hard to find out where they are. And, um, yeah, you, you really have to get a feeling for this. That's what I did. Like I was talking with the people, um, and tried to get a feeling, and if your feeling's not right, then I wouldn't go there.
Even if they have like 15 HR publications, I, I wouldn't really care because it's. If it doesn't feel right, then, um, it'll be too risky. It's not gonna
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: feel right for a few years straight. Yeah,
Matthias Stangl: exactly.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, I think, uh, there was actually on, uh, there's a podcast, much more famous than mine, called Everything Hurts.
Um, and they talked about red flags in academia and one of the things they talked about was for labs. Um, and they said one of the like red flags is basically if they don't, if they really don't want you to talk to other people from the lab during an interview or something.
Matthias Stangl: Right, yeah.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And, um, I mean, maybe I can give one example and I'm.
Because this was on his, this ethos was on his website. I don't think you'll mind me saying this. I once applied for a PhD position with Class Han, and I didn't get it, but [00:30:00] in that interview. I mean, I'm sure there were one or two people who weren't there, but you got to meet the entire lab during the application procedure basically.
I mean, he has a big lab, so you don't meet them one by one because that would take forever. But you, you basically, during the application, you got to see and briefly talk to the entire lab. And I think that's just, um, as they also in on that, everything hurts episode mentioned. Like that's a pretty good statement from the lab.
If they say like, yeah, talk to anyone from the lab. Like talk to the people. I mean, I dunno what it's like to work in that lab because I didn't get the position. But, um, I think that kind of thing, you know, same for my position now. I mean, for my, it's a bit different because Christoph Ka, my supervisor, started his lab and hired three people kind at the same time.
So there wasn't really anyone there, um, which made that well, impossible in the literal sense. But he also said like. You know, we're at the institute here. Just meet a few people, right?
Matthias Stangl: Yeah.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: People from who were in the same lab seen before and that kind of stuff. And I think [00:31:00] basically if people do that, that's already a pretty good sign.
Yeah. And I, you know, during my applications, I also had some people where I didn't meet anyone from the lab.
Matthias Stangl: All right.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Not necessarily a negative sign, but. It's not necessarily a good one either. Yeah.
Matthias Stangl: Yeah. I didn't even know it was a thing that, you know, labs might not want you to talk with the people there, but honestly that, that I, that doesn't sound good.
So I would Yeah, exactly. If someone tell me, oh yeah, no, don't talk to my employees, then, I mean, yeah, this is, this is definitely a red flag and. I also would like to add one thing, and I see that if it's huge labs, you know, you probably maybe not be able gonna be able to talk with everybody, but I, I also wanna say that.
These kind of one-on-one meetings. This was the really most important thing for me. Yeah. One-on-one meeting with the advisor, but also one-on-one meeting, like with as many people as possible. Even, even if they are not even in the same lab, maybe neighboring labs, like every single one-on-one meeting. Like you, you, you kind of [00:32:00] hear things that, that are really relevant and so I know it's not always possible to talk with everybody, but.
Try to do this, try to do this really, like when you're at conferences, go to find out, find out, um, who is working in this lab. They usually have posters or just are at the conference and just go there and start talking with them. And, um, one-on-one meetings are the best thing because then people are, you know, like more open.
And that was the main helpful thing for me.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So what were you looking for then? Was it just whether you like talking to the people? And they seem like they have interesting ideas or kind of, I mean, was there anything specific that you, anything good or bad specifically you looked for? Or was it just Yeah, just get a, uh, get an idea of who the people are.
Matthias Stangl: I was not so much looking for. Ideas and also not so much like obviously I was interested, but it wasn't my main focus to learn what they are doing because you [00:33:00] know, I wanted to follow my own ideas and and plans anyways. But obviously this is something you can easily start. To talk about, you know, you meet someone and then you tell them who you are, they tell you what they do and who they are.
So it's, it's, it's a good kind of, um, opener. But, um, but then, um, I was really interested in getting kind of the information, uh, about the lab. Like how, how it is, um, to work. There are people, you know, like. Working together or does everybody have their own projects? And basically, do you have to do your own stuff yourself or is there like, you know, a group of people who is really like executing one project together?
How does this work or these kind of things. Like it's, it's really something where it's more about like feel, getting a feeling of how. The kind of mentality of the PI and of the lab members are, and if they [00:34:00] like, I mean, the, the, the critical question is do they like to be there? Are they happy where they are?
And, um, everything you can talk about with them is really just to find that out because if they are happy, um, then you have a good chance that you're gonna be happy too. Right.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, and I guess many people won't say that they don't like being in the lab, but it's usually pretty clear when, when, when that is the case, even if they won't say so explicitly.
Matthias Stangl: Yeah. And I also, you know, many people want to talk about, you know, what they're going through and then, and they, and they, they are open, but maybe not, like, maybe you're not, if you, if you ask them like in a, in a talk where, you know, like 25 people can hear them. But, but um, that's why I said like these one-on-one meetings, you can, you can ask people like pretty openly, like, okay, how does it feel being a postdoc in this lab?
Or How does it feel like doing your PhD in this lab? And maybe not everybody, but at least some people will give you an honest opinion. And that, [00:35:00] that, that to me is the information that you want to, to get in addition to, you know, like how is the science, how, uh, the papers, how are the opportunities, how is the equipment?
All of that is interesting. But the more interesting but harder to get information is really like. Are people there happy with, like the mentoring, with the management, with, um, collaborations, having, having good teachers, these kind of things. This is, this is what you want to find out. And I think after talking, um, with people for a little bit, um, most of the time, many, many PhD students and postdocs are, uh, happy to, you know, talk about that as well.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Mm-hmm. I have a, yeah, not sure whether you'll be able to answer this question, but I guess just let me know if you can't. For example, in, in my case, one thing I'm thinking about, I don't think I'll do it, but one thing I'm kind of playing around is the idea of saying like, okay, I've done stuff with humans.
Now it might be interesting to say, to take the stuff I've learned with humans and actually apply it to animal studies. Yeah. Not sure whether actually [00:36:00] do that. Uh, but this would of course, in my case, mean, uh, a change of. Uh, not necessarily field per se, but definitely methodology. And I guess in your case, uh, maybe the reason why I'm asking you is because as far as I can tell, in your PhD or before your postdoc, you'd been doing FMRI analysis and in your postdoc you're using basically EEG analysis, right?
I mean, it's intracranial, but it's still EEG, and yeah, I mean, maybe was that. Was that a problem that you, you know, didn't, as far as I can tell, have direct experience in the methods you're gonna use or, yeah. How? Yeah.
Matthias Stangl: It's a very good question, but I always. Think it's the other way around, but I might be wrong for, I, I guess it depends on the lab and again, what they're looking for, but I think in my case it was more like the other way around.
And I also, I also think it can be the other way, way around more [00:37:00] often. Because if you other
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: way around, you mean what exactly.
Matthias Stangl: Um, so you're saying, well, you, you, you were asking if it's a disadvantage that you don't kind of have the complete expertise that might be needed to do this postdoc, but I think it can be the other way around as to, as in it can be an advantage.
Mm-hmm. Because what, because you know what people. Bring to the lab is also very important for the pi. And if you just bring stuff that's already there, it's not gonna help them as much as, you know, if there is somebody who, who's kind of doing something related or, you know, obviously you want to have some overlap, you wanna say, okay, yeah, I, I have these cool ideas and I want to do this and I have some background also, but you kind of.
Come from a different angle. And in my case, yes, it was a different method, but still if, if you kind of have a different angle, it opens up an opportunity for them as well because they get a different perspective. Maybe new ideas, fresh ideas, creative ideas. You know, I can imagine, [00:38:00] I, I don't know. I have never worked in a lab that's doing, um, animal research, rodent research, but I can imagine that.
If you are like a rodent research lab, it might, it might open up a million opportunities, um, or at least ideas. If you have a person who is, who has done or has been doing something similar like in humans, right? Because then, then you can go in a more like transitional phase from, you know, like rodents to humans.
And, and, and ask different questions or just get different perspectives. So I think, and, and that's, that's how I would frame it. Also, if you apply and if you talk with, um, potential PIs, I would not say, you know, yeah, I'm sorry. I'm not perfect because I, I don't have like, experience with, um, animal research.
I would say like, okay, well. I would love to, you know, like investigate what I have done in humans and try to, you know, like tackle whatever it is or that specific questions in animals to kind of bridge the gap or something, you know what I'm was saying? So, [00:39:00] so I would, I would, I would use it as an advantage and not as kind of a, oh yeah, sorry, I'm not perfect.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I agree. Going in by saying, hi, I'm not perfect, but can I still have a job? It's maybe not the greatest way to start it, but, um, it was also just, I guess what I'm also curious about is. I mean, I guess if you, if you're good with MRI analysis and programming and uh, basic maths or whatever, then learning EEG isn't the hardest thing.
But it's also, I mean, for example, with animal research, for me right now, the question is do I want to spend that much time learning how to do those things during a postdoc or is it just gonna take too much time with my postdoc and then by the end I'll. Have learned another thing, but not really have, you know, not have much to show for it, that kind of thing.
I guess it depends on like also the length of your contract and that kind of stuff. But
Matthias Stangl: I see,
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: you know, if you have a two year postdoc
Matthias Stangl: Hmm.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But yeah.
Matthias Stangl: Yes. Yeah, I mean, I, I, I would base this decision really on, on, if you're interested in it, right? If it's just, you know, something that you want to put [00:40:00] on your cv.
I mean, maybe it's not worth, you know, just going a completely different direction because it sounds good. But if you, if that's what you want to do, if you really wanna do, um, rodent research, but you only have experience with, um, with human research before. Then, uh, yeah, sure. Then it's definitely worth, you know, spending the time and, and, and, and, and finding a lab where you can do that.
And, and then there are for sure ways to, you know, like phrase that and frame that so that it, so that it's an advantage that you don't have this experience. But I think it, this, this, this is really like what, what, this is really a question of. What are you interested in? And, um, if you are ultimately interested in doing human research, then I don't think it's worth spending a lot of time to do something else.
And then, because then at the end you want to have another transition back to, it's, it's, it's, it's really just what you want to do.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, exactly. And I dunno whether I'm gonna do it, even apply for stuff, but it's just one of those. [00:41:00] Yeah, I guess it's part, it's, it's a, it's an outside thought I have, and I guess also lots of listeners will have something similar where they, you know, I've done memory research, but the new lape in perception or that, you know, whatever it might be.
Matthias Stangl: But that's, but that's a, that's, that's one of these things. I meant that's a perfect kind of, that's actually not a disadvantage. It's a perfect thing. Right? Because there are like so many ways to combine this. That to me would be the, the big selling point, like how you sell yourself to a potential employer, right?
So you say, oh yeah, I have, I have experience in, you know, perception and there are a million ways to, to merge that with what you are doing. So please give me a job and then, um, if it feels right, then you got it. So that's, that's what I do. I I would, I would totally use that as an advantage.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, maybe as a kind of last question about postdoc stuff is maybe like, what exactly is, this is a broad question, but what exactly is the purpose of a postdoc?
Like what, maybe PhD in postdoc, like what am I supposed to be able [00:42:00] to do or know, or whatever. I mean is PhD, maybe I, for me, PhD, let's say maybe PhD was something where I really wanted to figure out what I wanted to do as in terms of like, I'd done lots of different things before, um, like pretty varied and.
But I didn't, and I had like a few things I was interested in, but it didn't narrow down to like a specific question or topic per se. And you know, now I've kind of, I think I found that, so that's, for me, that counts as a success for, for my VHD. Um, so like, I don't know what's the postdoc stage for? Um, you know,
Matthias Stangl: so I can imagine that this, this can be very different.
So I can tell you how, how it is for me, how I feel about it. Um. For me, being a PhD student was really kind of to learn the, the basics and the fundamentals of being a scientist and also, yeah, also find your direction. That's to, and then it's great that you can already say that, that you did that because that's, that's, I think it's, it's a very important step also [00:43:00] to, to figure out what you're interested in and what you wanna do and, and finding kind of your, your career theme, so to say.
So that's, that's a good thing. Um, but for me. PhD is really learning, um, learning and, and being trained in being a scientist. Um, so then. Postdoc for me, you know, there is obviously an overlap because I'm still learning all the time and, and, and, and, and so obviously, and, and also I, uh, like I found a very nice career theme o on only like during my postdoc, basically, I mean, or at least be, it's getting more and more specific during my postdoc, but for me, postdoc is more like learning how to be also.
Not only like a scientist, but also how to work in academia or in this kind of, in this setting, which. It includes many more things than just, you know, knowing what you're interested in and doing it in terms of techniques and analysis and all these kind of things. [00:44:00] But it's, it's what I said before. It's like being a postdoc.
You should try to get as much experience, experience and, and learn how to be like a mentor, how to be a manager, like you know, how to manage projects, maybe even multiple projects at the same time. How to get an overview. How to get the big picture kind of right. So, um, or how to be a teacher also. So that, to me it's like the PhD prepares you how to be like a scientist in terms of how to do the work.
But then, um, being a postdoc hopefully is more the phase where you learn how to be a pi, how to be a leader, kind of, and that to me is. Just to circle back to what I said before, that is exactly also why you wanna make sure that the person you're learning from, like in my case naia, you want, you wanna make sure that, that this person, um, can teach you that.
And NAIA is like, really that that's, to me, it feels like that's her, or that's one of her main [00:45:00] strength is like, she's such a great mentor and manager and like, these are things that I have not learned during my PhD and I didn't even focus on because you're doing science, you're doing your projects. But here I really learn and, and she involves me in things, um, that are, that are, you know, beyond working on a project, it's really like how, how to, you know, manage things, how to, how to mentor students, these, these kind of things.
Also, how to even, you know, like survive in academia, like, like networking. How, how do you get a job? All of these things, they come, you know, like on top of. Doing your project. Um, this is the important thing, at least during my postdoc time. And yeah, this, this is also what makes it great being in this particular lab because, um, I learned from like really good examples like man and also others, uh, just, you know, like.
Doing this really, really well. And, and they involve me. And [00:46:00] this is why I, you know, why I'm happy to be a postdoc here. And, you know, like, um, so imagine after your PhD you directly be a pi. That's, that's all stuff that you have never learned. You, you have no idea how to, how to be like a manager and your mentor and all these kind of things.
And may maybe you're just naturally really good at it, but it's definitely helpful, at least for me too. To see this, um, based on other people who are really good at it.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So you've mentioned you've kind of found your research theme or narrowed it down a bit during your postdoc. Um, what's, what is that research theme, uh, or what's kind of stuff you want to be doing in the next few years or maybe even long term future?
Matthias Stangl: So, um, I started first a bit more like on a broader scale with spatial navigation and you know, this cognitive map. Thing, like how do you know where you are? How do we all know where we are? How do we find our way around? And I, I, and during my postdoc, I was also following that, um, that kind of [00:47:00] idea and this direction.
But, so the next step is basically. And this is what I, what I've already started doing with the, with the nature paper, and this is what I wanna, I, I basically want to build upon this and go, um, further in this direction. And I'm very happy that I found this kind of career theme because it's very interesting.
It seems like also the community and kind of hopefully funding agencies and all the, like, it's, it's just, it's just something that people are interested in. And this is, this is like, you know, how do we not only, you know, like. Navigate in our environment. How do we know where we are? But also how do we integrate other things in a more naturalistic, um, scenario?
How do we integrate, for example, other people into our cognitive map, right? How do we know where other people are? How do we know where objects are and. One specific thing that I want to add to that, and this is something that I'm, it's more like a plan for the future. We haven't done that, um, yet, but, um, this, this should [00:48:00] kind of go, um, into this career theme is, um, I would like to combine all of this.
By not only researching, you know, like where we are, where someone else is, but also who they are in terms of there, there's just so much we, we don't understand about, you know, how do we keep track of where we are? How do we keep track, track of where other people for example are, but then also the social aspect of this, like who are they in terms of, you know, your social or emotional or hierarchical relationships, for example.
Um, all of this plays a very important role in, you know, like, how do we encode. Where someone else is, but also who this other person is. And ultimately this is also gonna be very important, you know, not only for basic scientific understanding of how the brain works, but also all of these. Functions are strongly affected by, by, you know, um, different, um, neurodegenerative diseases, for example.
[00:49:00] Um, just thinking of Alzheimer's, one example, that there are many, many more where these functions of the brain are pretty heavily kind of compromised and impaired. So this is, this is definitely what I, what I first, you know, wanna. Try to establish kind of a, a fundamental understanding of these things like where we, where others who are others, what's kind of the, how do we encode information about others, because if we have this understanding, then we can also think about, you know, how can we help help people where, um, these functions are impaired, like, um, Alzheimer's or
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah.
Matthias Stangl: Or other, other disease cases.
Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Sounds pretty cool.
Matthias Stangl: Yeah, I, I'm happy about this as well because this is something that I'm, I'm very interested in and I think it's also, it's just really, it can be potentially like really impactful and helpful, not only for. Careers, but also for [00:50:00] people in general and with the perspective of, you know, being very useful for, for clinical cases.