26. Book club: Killing Floor by Lee Child, chapters 1-7 & 8-14

This is the first episode of our book club on Killing Floor by Lee Child, his first novel, the novel that introduced Jack Reacher. As always with the book club, there will be spoilers and it probably makes most sense if you have read as far as we have. I will also be reading some quotes I highlighted from Reacher Said Nothing by Andy Martin, a book I'm reading in parallel in which Andy Martin watches Lee Child write a Jack Reacher novel.

For this series, I'm joined by Koen Frolichs, fellow PhD student in the same lab that I'm in.

Timestamps
00:05: Beginning discussing chapters 1-7
52:30: Beginning discussing chapters 8-14

Podcast links

• Website: https://bjks.buzzsprout.com/

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/BjksPodcast

Koen's links

• Google Scholar: https://scholar.google.de/citations?user=E65Fv74J0ywC

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/koenfused

Ben's links

• Website: www.bjks.page/

• Google Scholar: https://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?user=-nWNfvcAAAAJ

• Twitter:  https://twitter.com/bjks_tweets   

• Read Full Script

  [This is an automated transcript with many errors]

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: [00:00:00] So this is now the second series in our book discussion or book club series, whatever you wanna call it. So the, the last one, we did Crime and Punishment, but Osky and this time we're gonna be doing Killing Floor by Lee Child. I realized that in the last one, I didn't really ever introduce the other person I was talking to, uh, the entire time.
  
  

  Um, I hope Antonio is gonna forgive me, but, so I think I should probably do it now, so at least people roughly know who the other person is. Uh, so who are you? Um, so this is Koon I'm looking at right now, Ko, uh, fellow PhD student in the same lab as me, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: correct? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, yeah, and I guess, uh, the format is the same as before.
  
  

  So, you know, in this book club it's basically we discuss long books. At least 500 pages long. And these are usually books that [00:01:00] I've wanted to read for a while, but somehow never got around to doing. And as last time, so. I dunno, anything really about literature other than that I read a lot, so I can't have my guests know too much either.
  
  

  Um, so I That's 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: great. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Koon would be the perfect, but look, if someone who also reads that doesn't know anything about literature, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: this is why was chosen. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Yeah. This didn't I tell you? 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Oh shit. Okay. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: No, but it's, uh, you know, as I said earlier, it's, it's just a set expectations where we, we don't, we didn't study literature or anything.
  
  

  No, no. We did. We just, people who read a fair bit and are now gonna read a long book together, uh, and for some reason we think it's a good idea to talk about it and then publicize or make public that recording. 'cause 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yes, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: maybe this is what people want. I don't know. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Slightly narcissistic, but you know, it's something.
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I mean, you have to live up your [00:02:00] narcissism somehow, right? 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, exactly. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, and I do it via. Talking to people and then uploading it. So then no one listens to the recording. That's, that's basically my plan. Yeah. Um, so also in this series we also assume that the, the reader has, is reading the book also.
  
  

  This is not the kind of thing where we just explain or retail everything that's happening. It's more that we've read, uh, usually around a hundred pages. Um, today, this is then the first seven chapters of killing, killing floor, not killing time. And so, yeah. So, uh, if you haven't read the first seven chapters, then why are you listening to this?
  
  

  Uh, please go back and read the first seven chapters and then you can rejoin us. Otherwise, let's give you lots of spoilers, basically, because we're gonna just be talking about everything. So if you haven't read it, have fun reading the first seven chapters, and if you have read it, then I guess we can start.
  
  

  Sure. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: I. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So as, [00:03:00] uh, with, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: should we maybe say it's the first one we chose the, the first Jack Richer book? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Maybe why I chose, why we chose this book to read is, so I've been, I dunno, a few, a few years ago or something, I did the classic thing of being at a train station and picking up some random book. It happened to be one of the jack er books, Uhhuh, uh, I kind of liked it.
  
  

  And then since then, every half year or so, I probably read another one every year, every half year or so. Uh, but I've never read the first one. I, for some. I mean, I guess I only pick those up when I'm basically at a train station or something. And I guess they have the new ones. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. So that's why I've read like, not actually the newest ones, but like a few of the recent ones.
  
  

  Um, but I've never, so how many, uh, there's, uh, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: how many have you read? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Oh, how many have I read? Yeah, I think so. I read, actually the first one I read was a collection of short stories, which I didn't know was unusual because they're all novels apart from this one book. But that's the one I read [00:04:00] first. Okay.
  
  

  And then I think 3, 2, 2 or three, I can't remember. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Okay. Okay. So yeah. So you have 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: some idea? Yeah, I've read, yeah, I've read some. Um, it happens to be, I think they were actually all consecutive, but yeah. So in this series there's like, I dunno how many there are, 20, 30, something like that. Quite a few. Um, and they started in like the early nineties and new chart has been publishing one a year since then.
  
  

  So, yeah, I've always been curious what the first one was like, because Lee Charles was also not a writer when he wrote this. He was recently fired, uh, TV producer or something like that, who as far as I know, had never really written any fiction until then. So I was, yeah, I'm just curious like how his writing changed or whether it changed and.
  
  

  Yes. I just wanted to read the first one, basically. Um, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: makes sense. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And, uh, Kun, another reason of course, why, uh, your guest here is or why you're the, the co-host or whatever is that you started reading one of the books and then didn't want to finish it. So I think that's another good, that is a good one.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. [00:05:00] Yeah, yeah. I guess it's, I mean, it might be good to know, like we, we kind of share books in the lab. Um, everyone, you know, who has fun books shares them and the rest reads them kind of, I mean, that, that's what we try. Ben has been the major, I was about to say, it's mainly 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: me giving 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: books. Yeah. And the rest using you, using your goodwill.
  
  

  Um, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah, I'm used to it. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. So, so, I mean, what was the book? Um, it was one of the latest ones, right? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I think it was one of the better ones. Um, although I could, okay. Yeah. It's, what was it called? Past tense? I think. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Past tense. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. It's, it's a bit, I think that one's a bit slow because you kind of, you know, you're waiting from like page 20 on for the combination and you kind of know what's gonna happen.
  
  

  And I felt like it was slightly dragged out, but I thought that one was pretty good. Okay. Um, and I think that one is also more representative of what the reacher books are, like the ones that I've read now. Sure. Whereas this first one, I think is a bit different in many, in a few ways. Which we can talk [00:06:00] about later.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, so that's the book that's You covered Kun. Uh, anything else? Yeah, that's pretty much it. It's another page, a book that's more than 500 pages long. We're gonna read around a hundred pages a week. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Barely. Right. How many is Yeah, 5 5 24. 5 25, yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Just over. Yeah. I'm gonna read about a hundred pages a week and then talk about it.
  
  

  Basically, whatever we. Found interesting, confusing, whatever. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. But it's gonna be, we we're gonna try to keep it a little bit free flowing, right? Um, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah, I mean, so we're gonna have a, I'm gonna read a summary of each chapter in a minute, and after that it's, yeah, pretty much whatever comes up. I mean, I think towards the end it, I think, like I quite liked in the crime and punishment discussion towards the end, having the last five minutes or so be, you know, what you think is gonna happen next, what's gonna happen to that person.
  
  

  A kind of bit of a guessing. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, I thought that was quite nice. But yeah, apart from basically you have like five minutes structure at the [00:07:00] beginning, five minutes structured at the end, and everything else is just, it's just yeah. Mayhem. Totally. No idea what's gonna happen. Uh, it's gonna be crazy within the limits of a book club.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, that's 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: which limits the craziness substantially. Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Anyway, uh, let's do the five minutes at the beginning or, you know, actually, I, I, I write down now two, three sentences per chapter because in the beginning of Crime and Punishment, I thought I just freestyle it, which led to eight minute summary of the of, of a hundred pages.
  
  

  Sure. Uh, so now I write them down because it's surprisingly difficult to not start waffling. At least for me, I 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: couldn't do it. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Anyway, so here's a summary. Chapter one, richer, soaking wet from a long walk, having just arrived from out of state, is eating in a diner when a full policeman arrest and for murder, which he says he did not commit.
  
  

  Chapter two, Richa is interrogated about the last 24 hours and his previous life. Richa says he grew up in the army, worked for the army, and is now out of work, [00:08:00] traveling at random. He also says he took a bus in the last day, he took a bus from Florence to Georgia and then walked the last 40 miles. The police chief comes around as a witness and disagrees with Richa saying Richa was around the crime scene, not getting onto a bus.
  
  

  In Tampa, chapter three, reach is interviewed by two policemen who put him under some pressure. But Richa finds the fault in their reasoning and exposes their theory is weak. Richa thinks the murder was committed by three people. A phone number was found in the victim's shoe with the word pluribus written, uh, underneath, I can't remember, and that phone number, I can't read my handwriting.
  
  

  Uh, that phone number is traced to a local man called Paul Hubble, chapter four. Hubble, a rich banker is bought into the police station. He confesses to the murder after hearing the word pluribus and knows facts about the murder, but he couldn't have been at the crime scene at the time of the murder. One [00:09:00] of the police officers drove him home from a party after the time of the murder.
  
  

  Chapter five, police Chief Morrison thinks that Hubble hired Richa for the murder. Rich and Hubble are brought, are brought to a jail for the weekend where they share a cell.
  
  

  Chapter six, as Unconvicted prisoners reach and Hubble should be in holding cells. Instead, they're on the floor with Lifetime. As IE people who are in prison for life, they get a visit from the Red Boys, Reacher, headbutts, one of them, Hubble asked Richa for help because his family is being threatened to death if he tells anyone anything.
  
  

  Chapter seven Richer. Tells Hubbel to keep a secret. The Arian Brotherhood tries to kill Richard. And might have done so if the red boys didn't intervene, reach and harbo are transferred to the. Proper floor six, the holding cells. That was a weird last sentence. I'm sorry. Anyway, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: totally fine. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That's Oh, thank you.[00:10:00] 
  
  

  I thought you were gonna be angry at me. Um, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah. Yeah. I'll leave now. Sorry. Can't deal with this. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: We need proper English sentences here. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. Um, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah, so that, that was the first seven chapters. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: That was a good summary that I, I could follow along. Um, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Have means I read the book. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. It's something that, it, it's really cool.
  
  

  Sometimes I become a punishment when you have like some ridiculous plot line and you can say it in one sentence that sounds, it can often sound very funny, uh, when you just read it like in a very dry manner. Like all the emotional stuff that happens. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Like in kind of punishment. There was like, my favorite sentence summary of a chapter was something like.
  
  

  This one guy, uh, goes to bed, has two nightmares, uh, walks around town, harasses this guy, does that, and then shoots himself in the face. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Great. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: It's, but like a few steps in between. So it's like, anyway, that's another one. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Sounds like a great summary. Yeah, yeah. Actually, can I start with a question to you?
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Of course. [00:11:00] 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Um, so, so I was wondering that, do you read this book differently than you would normally because you know you're gonna be talking about it? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, definitely. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Okay. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, it's probably, yeah, that's, that's one thing that's slightly in, not annoying, but like you, I do slightly lose the kind of naturalness of just reading it and 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Sure.
  
  

  Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, the basic thing is that I think the main difference is just that I have to write down what happens so I don't forget like obvious plot lines. I think sometimes I might just, or like, or not even obvious plot lines, you know, you'll get those, but like the, the minor plot lines, that might become more important.
  
  

  For example, I noticed that with. I don't wanna keep talking about the old one, but with crime and Punishment, I noticed that in the beginning I kind of neglected a, a plot line. Um, and then afterwards it came back and I was like, oh shit, I just don't remember exactly what happened, should have. So now I'm a bit more cautious of getting, especially my summary, getting most of the plot lines in there.
  
  

  I mean, oh, for example, like one thing I forgot to write down here is now that reacher fancies one of the police or [00:12:00] the one police woman, um, that's something that's gonna come back. Uh, I forgot to mention that now, but 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: definitely. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, no, definitely. It's, you know, this trade off, right? Where if I. For most long books.
  
  

  I mean, this one is an easy book to read, but for most long books, I might not finish them otherwise. And now I know. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna finish it because we have the discussion. Sure. But then I do lose a bit of the kind of spontaneity of reading, whatever you wanna call 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: it, the flow. Yeah. Got it. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah.
  
  

  There's a bit of a like, don't forget this, write this down. Yeah, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You, you try to be a bit more attentive. I also try, because you don't want to be like the dumbass who's like, oh, I never saw that coming right in, like episode three. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Wait, 
  
  

  who's 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Richard? 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, it's especially bad because I'm really bad with names.
  
  

  I just have no in, in both. Like when it comes to actual people in real life and books, I just, it just doesn't matter to me at all. So I just keep forgetting them. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, I once had a book where there were literally two characters, and I halfway through, I was like, [00:13:00] who's this name? Who's this person? I was like, oh, that's one of the two characters I just completely forgot.
  
  

  Um, so I mean, I, I. If you read a lush, a Russian book like we did before, then you quickly learn that you have to Yeah, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah, yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: It's, it's, but already here, there's already like eight names or something. Right. There's already quite a few people in here. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, true, true. Actually, yeah. I, I've actually, now that we're talking, I'm thinking like, can I, you know, can I still, the na the main characters, right?
  
  

  I 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: can't, I 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: can, I still do it. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I've really forgotten the name of the, the Who, I don't exactly know what his title is, but you know the guy who put Rich and Hobble on Floor three at the end? The, you know, the last 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: ly? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yes. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Like the, the, I 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: actually wrote it down for a separate question. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: A adjunct director of the jail.
  
  

  You mean like he's not 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Vy, Vy Pyy, yeah. I dunno. S-P-I-V-V-E-Y. Anyway, that guy, yeah. I'm forgetting his name, and that's kind of how the last chapter ends. Right? So 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: true. Yeah, because he seems to be like, you know, he seems to be a big player, right? [00:14:00] Because he put them. Yeah, but seems like purposely on the wrong floor.
  
  

  I mean, maybe we shouldn't start with the last chapter. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. But no, I mean, I agree. I think, I mean this is probably gonna be like a whole thing, right? That there's this, this police corruption at various different institutions here is kind of what's leading region to this situation. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: is there, is there usually a moral attached to Jack Richer or is it just like, you know, Jack Richer is a badass?
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I think that's, that is the moral, uh, no, I mean, that 
  
  

  is 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: the moral, okay. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So here's the thing, right? So Jack Richer never attacks innocent people or anything like that. He, he always, I mean, basically his, his whole thing is he used to be in the military and like learned all these crazy fighting skills and is basically the person on the, on earth you want to fuck with least.
  
  

  Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And. But he never uses that to just bully people or anything. He's not a bully. Sure. He bas, oh, here's the thing, right? He's probably a sadistic psychopath because he, [00:15:00] no, no. I mean, there's some books where, uh, so here in this one, he only defends himself, right? I mean, he's driving very viscerally and it's very vi, but he defends himself.
  
  

  There's others where he. There's like one where he basically beat someone who wa he was attacking him, like he offend himself and then he like kicked him in the face like really hard just before he was leaving. The kind of thing where like that was, that was not necessary. Unnecessary. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And he does that a bit.
  
  

  Like, I think he's sometimes un unnecessary. Brutal. But he, yeah. I don't think he ever attacks first unless he kind of thinks the other person's gonna attack him. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, sure. If he, if he knows, like, it's like it happens in prison, right? Where the, what are they called? The rat boys. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Which is such a lovely generic gang name.
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: But that's the nineties for you, I think. Um, he's like, he knows like these five guys are gonna mess with him, so he just like headbutt the shit out of this. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Exactly. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: This big guy. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Three two headbutt. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Headbutt. Yeah. Yeah, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah, yeah. No. So he, he, he will do that, but he, I don't [00:16:00]remember in the books I've read him ever, um, even coming close to exerting violence to someone who didn't either exert.
  
  

  Who's either about to exerted on him or who's putting some sort of physical or whatever pressure on someone else. Sure. Um, so that in a way that is probably the moral that he's kind of this vi a violent robin hood. Well, I guess it's not about money, but, you know, standing up for the, for those who can't defend themselves 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: for the weak.
  
  

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But that's pretty much it. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: That's, yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And by a guy who really also enjoys doing that. Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. I mean, yeah, he left the military, but like, you know, or not, I guess he still likes that kind of stuff. The, the more 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Violence he, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: he is, so that's like one thing I meant, you know, one thing I wanna talk about slightly, the differences I've already seen here to other Jack Reacher books and, you know, one is that he's described as a tall guy here, but in the other ones he's always described as like six foot five or something.
  
  

  Mm-hmm. It's like, it's much more specific. [00:17:00] And, um, so basically Jack Reach is. I mean, he's, he's almost two meters tall, weighs like a hundred and, I don't know, 10 kilograms, 120 kilograms or something with like no fat and has like all the fighting skills in the world. Right. Well, I think like more in terms of like street fighting in particular.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, yeah. Totally. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Fighting, you know, just headbutt someone first. Yeah, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, he's there to, to win, right? Like he's not in like in a, in a cage with like a referee or whatever. He's in a street fight. Yeah, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: exactly. He's, he's there to destroy the other person if, if necessary. Yeah. And sometimes, if not exactly necessary, but 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah.
  
  

  But then just looked at him in a weird way. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. No, it's funny. I, I haven't, like, one thing that I found interesting here in this book relative to the others I read, is that this is, well actually maybe for you, like, how does, um, let's see if I can ask a kind of directed question that doesn't then reveal what I want you.
  
  

  Like what I think, I [00:18:00] mean, I'm, I'm kind of interested in like how you perceive him as a person in this book as someone who hasn't really read much of the others. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Sure, sure. I mean, I have to admit, I did watch one, there's a Jack Richo movie. I think it's, it's Tom Cruise. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Where everyone hates that Tom Cruise facing, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: because it's Tom.
  
  

  Right. He's like a poor guy, like talented born suit. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Just about that. There's, um, I watched when I, after I read like two or three of the richer books, I watched a few interviews with the author Lee Child. Yeah. Uh, just about this. And I think a lot of the interviews were in recent years when the film already come out and like, not half the questions, but a high proportion of questions were like, why is Tom Cruise playing this guy?
  
  

  And he defended himself every time and his, his answers basically, yeah, Tom Cruise is not physically what Jack reaches. Sure. But then again, no actors like find one actor who's a good actor who's. You know, almost two meters tall and completely ripped and can fight. Sure. [00:19:00] Like, there, there is, there are none basically.
  
  

  And those who say they are are usually shorter. It seems like. He said, like he met quite a lot of actors and apparently they often pretend they're taller than they are. So he said like, you know, there are no actors like that. So I just look for someone with the right mentality. But it is fun to me that just no one likes John Cruise play Jack region.
  
  

  And I think actually them making a new one with a different actor, if I remember correctly, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: it could be, I dunno. I 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: remember anyway, guess you've seen the film. I actually haven't seen any of the films, so I don't know. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, no, I, I saw, I mean, and I think it's, I mean, it's probably quite like, you probably acted it out pretty well, right?
  
  

  It's just that, okay, so my perception of Jack Reacher is this, this super, you know, logical, straightforward guy. You know, he always sees through everyone's bullshit, sees through life's bullshit and just knows how to deal with it, but doesn't want to deal with it, like, kind of, right. He's, he's a loner.
  
  

  Doesn't wanna deal with people, but he's got too much of a, like, what, what would you say? Like moral compass to like, just let stuff happen. Like [00:20:00] now it happens to him. Yeah. I mean, the other book I read, like, um, I read like the first like a hundred pages or something. Like, you know, he's gonna probably help out like some hundred people who get into trouble.
  
  

  Right? Exactly. Exactly. Um, and he could just walk away. He's a loner. Like he's got, you know, no, there's no need for him to like step in kind. Right. But he does anyways. 'cause he's got like, he's, he's still a good guy. Like yeah, he had spots. People, you know, probably like puts him in the hospital for like months.
  
  

  But he's a good guy. I think that's kind of, you know, it's like kind of this guy. That's why it's written. Right. It's just like kind of a guy every, at least guy kind of wants to be, maybe. Yeah. Right. You would just want to be like this badass, like you can beat a fight guy. Deal with with situation. Yeah.
  
  

  You can deal with situations. Yeah. Like 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: anything, basically. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: I mean, let, let's be honest, if a cop walks in, even not pointing his gun at me, I panic a little bit. Why's like, oh fuck, what does he want from me? Yeah. Right. He just sits there and he's like, Hmm. He's got a shotgun pointed a little too high. Yeah, right.
  
  

  Like, I wish I could be that cool. Like even like in, in lesser [00:21:00] situations, I think Jack Rich is just like, you know, he's this stereotype of like, you know, kind of the guy, everyone kind of, you know, would like to be at least in certain situations. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. What I like about. The way he's written is that he's, I mean he is like this fantasy, right?
  
  

  Yeah. But he's the, the, the intelligent version of the fantasy because he's not just a guy who's completely arrogant and cocky and thinks he can deal with everything. Mm-hmm. Like he actually can and he can do it because he has like decades of training. Sure. Or like 15 years when he is of training. Right.
  
  

  Like, he's not the guy who just walks around pretending he can fight anyone. He actually like learned how to fight. Like he put two decades of whatever of training into this and that's why he can do it. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: He's not just, yeah. I mean, of course his like height and that kind of stuff is in part, something he didn't do, but um, and if he was, you know, a meter 65, not a meter 95, then I'm sure these books would be d play out a bit differently.
  
  

  But 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I like that he has, even though he plays this fantasy [00:22:00] role, it's, it's a kind of realistic fantasy in that sense. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, if, yeah, if you had a guy who went through 20 years of many training and was almost two meters tall, yeah, he could probably, that's probably how, what it would more or less be like.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like your, you know, your amygdala has been dumbed down, so like it doesn't respond to Yeah. More stress reactions 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: as well, but also you've, you've seen the situations play out. That's kind of what I mean, right? You are kind of, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: If you've been, I dunno exactly know what its backstory is, but if you've been in lots of combat situations, you, you know, you've seen this stuff before, you know, after what's gonna happen.
  
  

  You, he can, that's the thing, like he can kind of guess what the people are gonna do, but not, you know, but not like on a kind of psychic, Ooh, I'm a mind reader, but just a kind of like, he's been there before. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he does, uh, like another thing that he does is like, when he's like in this, um, interrogation room with this, um, what do they call him?
  
  

  Superintendent or something? This, this black cop who came from, from Boston, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: uh, he was the No, he was the she detective or whatever, even though he only 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: one 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: chief 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: or 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: something like that. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: [00:23:00] 80, only one. Yeah. Like at the end he kind of like, you know, jabs at him by saying like, by kind of like telling him his past 20 years, right?
  
  

  You, oh, you study at Harvard, blah, blah, blah. That's kind of those like Sherlock Holmesy thing is that's like, you can, it's still on the level of, you know, it's still within impossible, right. That you kind of like guess this stuff, you know? Yeah. Um, so that's kind of cool. It's like this awareness, like this kind of born type of awareness that, that you can still believe is, is, is possible for a trained, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: interestingly, that's one, one thing I wanted to point out is that.
  
  

  That's something that is not in any of the later reacher books. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Oh really? Oh, okay. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: At least not to this extent. Well, sorry. Of the ones I've read, right? I've only read that before or something. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, no, I mean he has this thing of like guessing what people are like. Yeah. Um, but it's may, it's quite different.
  
  

  So I dunno, I can't remember, um, whether there is maybe something like this, but there's maybe two things I can comment on. The first thing is that when I read that, I thought like that's something that Lee Child has moved away from. It just seemed too much like the [00:24:00] Sherlock Holmes thing and not really what Richard would do, because in also he talks way more in this book than in others.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Really? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. You know, this whole speech he had, like, where he said like, you, you know, with that guy, like you did this, then you did that and you did that. He doesn't really do that now. He kind of, he might think something about someone. Then he punches the best, basically what happens. No, but like, so one example is like once when he, I guess a fighting scene is a bit different, but when he'd, you know, he'd eye people and like try and figure out what they were like, and you know, in, in the past tense, for example, in that book there's like one scene where I think three people move towards him.
  
  

  He is like, okay, this is gonna be easy because these three are not approached me properly. They clearly don't dunno how to fight it and then that kind of thing. Right. But he doesn, it doesn't go through this like Sherlock Holmes deductive kind of thing and Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That's actually something that at least I haven't seen in any of the later books.
  
  

  Um 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Okay. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Which I think makes sense also because it seems more realistic. Like this kind of detect, it's, this [00:25:00] thing seems always slightly like yeah, is would that really happen? But it's 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: educated gamble at best. Right, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: exactly. And 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: he does that a lot less than the later ones. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Okay. Okay. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But yeah, so like for me, one thing that stood out as I said is that he talks more in this one than others.
  
  

  Although I should also say like the other books I've read. So I think the richer books, um, alternate between first and third person. I mean, not alternating, but they, they some and first person, some and third person. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, and this one is obviously in first person, whereas all the others I've read when third person, so that obviously changes things a bit.
  
  

  Ah, okay. Um, but he seems a lot more. In the later one, it seems like he's kind of dropped the smart ass stuff. Sure. Um, and he's just, he just exists and kind of observes and acts. There's, there's a lot less of this, like, trying to be smart. Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Got it. Okay. Okay. So do you think, I mean, does he age throughout the books?
  
  

  Do you know? Because it's been like 20 years now, you know, at least in, in [00:26:00] our universe. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, I think it might be more like The Simpsons where it's kind of like you have this setting and the past and sometimes you have stuff about the past, but in general it's just like a recurring day or less almost. Got it.
  
  

  Yeah. Or not day, but you know, so I don't know. I mean, the, in the few I've read, I don't recall. Well, the problem is I haven't read like all the ones that were before, so I don't know whether it's he's referencing something that happened before. Mm-hmm. But as far as I can tell, it's usually. He references something from his military pass or something, but not, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: but that's it.
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. As far as I remember. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Okay. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, so I don't, there have been like 20 or 30 books, but a lot of these books take place over the course of like two weeks or whatever. So it is plausible that 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: it could happen. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. He like, he was like, I think in this one it says it's mid thirties or something, if I remember correctly.
  
  

  Yeah. And then, you know, he, you could still be doing that 10 years later if that would probably still work. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, yeah. And he could still be [00:27:00] physically on 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Exactly, exactly. Peak. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So, uh, but I don't, I don't know whether he ages. Okay. So probably not. Then I imagine 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: probably, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, I haven't read a reach away.
  
  

  He is like 80 years old and on a like scooter or something, trying to beat up people way too weak. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: I like him 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: just hitting people with his, walking with his cane. Like, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: well you could probably still find like a weak point in their body and like break it viciously. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Or at least he would try. Yeah. Yeah.
  
  

  It's weird, like this kind of person, how he is, he's this kind of guy. That kind of guy can't exist like that forever. Right. There's a, he has to have that kind of physical body to Yeah. To do that, right. If he's already six, I mean, a lot of that you can do with, you know, knowing how to fight, knowing situations, that kind of stuff.
  
  

  But ultimately he wins a lot of fights just because he's big and stronger. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I think it's also just like probability, right? If you get a [00:28:00] gun pointed at, at you every, like, every couple weeks, you know it's gonna go wrong at some point, right? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Yeah. It's 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: not you who, who decides that it's, you know, you can act all good, but a person make his finger can slip and just shoot you through the head, so, yeah.
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I mean, actually one thing I wanted to mention at the beginning that I forgot is that I am at, whilst reading this book, I'm also reading this book about how Lee Child writes richer books. Yeah. So there's this, uh, I forgotten the name now, but I'll put it in the description. There's this book where basically a guy says.
  
  

  To Leach out, Hey, can I just watch you write a breacher book? Well, they knew each other before so it wasn't completely random. But um, yeah, so to do that, and he also explains a bit of the back. I've read like the beginning now, the first three chapters, and he explains a bit of the background of breach and that kinda stuff.
  
  

  And apparently Leach Out did consider killing Breacher, you know, killing him off. Nice. Um, but I think, or like, or basically like ending the series, that kind of thing. Like either by killing him or by saying, he kind of just says like, you know, this [00:29:00] seems like a nice place, I'll stay here. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Got it. Yeah. So, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: um, and I think he, I can't remember exactly why, but he decided against it.
  
  

  And you know this, well now his brother took over the series, which is the most random thing, but I think like he wrote like a, the last few with his brother together or something, and that was brother was taking over completely. So I think he's just this like timeless figure who doesn't age. It's gonna 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: keep going.
  
  

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it, and it can happen, right? I mean it's just, I feel like these read books are just. Entertainment. Right? I don't mean it in any negative way. Yeah. But that's just it. Right? You just read him, you know, on the beach or whatever, or at home, like for a week and it's just, you know, nice entertainment makes you feel good.
  
  

  You know, you can, like, that's 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: a big guy. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Imagine you are a badass for, for a week, not like crying in jail. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Like 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: I imagine. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean No, it's definitely, I mean, this is, this is complete, like this is, I think traditional classical pop fiction, right? There's no, yeah. Um, as I said, like there's no real [00:30:00] moral or anything.
  
  

  It's just there's this guy. Who does this thing. Yeah. And he does it ever and over again, every book. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: And he does it very well. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. And it's, it's always the same plot line. Uh, pretty not, I mean, not the same plot line, but I mean it's, it's a, it's a, yeah. Classic kind of entertainment story where there's a problem at the beginning.
  
  

  He has to fight his way through several steps and then in the end, uh, he wins the problem solved. And us And so far in all the books, I think in all of the books I've read, he also gets the goal. Sometimes that happens earlier than later. Oh, okay. But, um, it's, I think so far, it's always happened in the novels that I've read.
  
  

  Um, and it looks like this one is gonna be the same. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: He's gonna get Roscoe. Yeah, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: exactly. I mean it's how a very subtle sit hint there. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: I love how he described like the first thing she's taking his fingerprints, right? So they're in this room, uh, in this interrogation room and she's taking his fingerprints and it's like, yeah, blah, blah, blah.
  
  

  And like she has like this, um, tight fitting blue shirt, like the blouse, typical [00:31:00] cup stuff. Blouse, yeah. Blouse, yeah. Um, and then it's like, uh, and then when she moves forward, her boobs press on the table. It's like, that's a high table or a short woman. But like, you know, the fact that he's, um, that that he's describing that kind of makes you, you know, kind of Yeah.
  
  

  Exactly. Mean and then she wings the him gives him coffee, everything. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: This is one thing that, in that scene in particular was one where I realized like, okay, child really got better over time as a writer because that's just too on the nose and that's just laughable. Um, just how like. Clumsily written it was, but that's the kind of stuff that in the later books, is much more elegantly and smoothly done.
  
  

  It's not like 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Got it, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: she winked at me. And that kind of story. Like, who the fuck winks that a guy has just been arrested? Like, that's not how anything happens. That's 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: exactly. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, yeah, and there's a lot of, that's 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: how 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: there's a lot of like, not only like about this kind of romance that's call it romance, this kind of romance scene, um, or plot land.
  
  

  Uh, but also the other stuff where he's just gotten a lot smoother at doing this stuff over time. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Like more refined. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: [00:32:00] Yeah. Yeah. You can really tell that this is like the first time he did this. It's, I mean, this is what's really interesting to me is that there's a lot of points where you go, like, I can see how the later books are already in here, but it's not done quite as well.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Okay. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Like there's, it's really hard to describe, like there's, you know, reacher is, you know, a complete meme as a person. Yeah. So. This kind of like him being tough and not saying anything and beating people up over in the, in the later books is, it's, it's done in a kind of often funnier way. I find like, like with a bit of a smile or like, not, not reacher doing it, but like the, it's done in a.
  
  

  Yeah. I dunno how to, I dunno how to describe it properly. I dunno whether it's just kind of a, the writer's confidence in and being able to build on this character you already built rather than here, you being an unknown writer, writing a first story for the first time. Yeah. But I think maybe because you can reference stuff, you can kind of make it a bit neat and [00:33:00] nicer later.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Sure, sure. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: I mean people already know Jack richer, right? I mean, even if you've never read a book, you kind of know 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: didn't from 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: pop culture. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I'd never heard of him until like three years ago or something. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Okay. I think. Okay. I think my dad might have read a couple, so I might have known from that. I dunno.
  
  

  Okay. Yeah, I thought he was kind of like a pop figure anyways, you know, like known, but maybe not. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, I'd never, I'd also never heard of the films really. So like that, that entire thing passed me by completely. Okay. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Okay. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, I mean I do read these kind of books, um, how should we say regularly, but not super frequently.
  
  

  Three, four, like there's a year or something. And, um. But somehow the, I mean, there's just so many series, right? And this one just passed me by for some reason. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: I mean, you have like, um, the born series as well, stuff like that, right? Oh, there's, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, there's so much. There's, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: I mean, and it's the same stereotypical guy who, you know, there's always some slight differences, but 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: it's always kind of, yeah, this, this badass guy who 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: [00:34:00] saves the day.
  
  

  Yeah, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: saves the day, gets the girl. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I mean, I haven't read one like this though, where the, so this is the thing, like this is still one where he's kind of a bit of a smile to and that kinda stuff. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Mm-hmm. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: In the later ones, I feel like he is a bit more, um. He is quite different from other series I've read.
  
  

  Um, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: okay. Okay. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But anyway, actually, shall we talk a bit more about the actual first seven chapters I realized because we, you know, we're doing an hour per, per recording and 40 minutes now, so we've got 20 minutes to actually discuss. But I mean, like, the thing is also, like, in the beginning I meant, uh, I was pretty sure we were gonna talk a bit more about these kind of things because this, this is the thing that I'm really paying attention to and this is why I wanted to read it, because I wanted to read the first one having read 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: some of the later ones.
  
  

  I 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: mean, it's good also to know kind of what we, what we're in for, right? Or like what, what we want out of this or what we expect kind 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: of. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, for example, there's like some things that are already in there. Like, he always drinks lots of coffee. Like he really likes coffee. He always eats [00:35:00]like eggs for breakfast.
  
  

  Uh, he always walks long distances. Like those things are already all in the book, but later on they're kind of, I don't know, not tongue in cheek, but it's kind of. You just recognize like, oh, that guy is doing that thing again, right? 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, yeah. He's got his routines. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, exactly. And one thing I found, oh yeah, so this is actually one thing about this part that is a bit more general, but then goes a bit more into the plot, is that, and that's different to the others I've read, is that he, he's, he's much more vulnerable in this one, the other books I've read, because all the other ones I've read, he's literally just roaming around the US and then he sees someone either do something wrong or about to do something wrong, and he tries to intervene.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Got it. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: He intervenes deaf. Um, he, he doesn't just try, he succeeds. Um, but in this one, this is the first time where, you know, he's in prison, he can't do anything. He's completely vulnerable to the conditions around him. Like if the police guard [00:36:00] says you stay on floor three, that's what happens. Right? Yeah.
  
  

  So this is the, like, this is the funny thing, like he seems to me a lot more vulnerable in this one than in others. He also sometimes says that he's kind of. He said like, I was anxious, nervous, or something at some point early on. I've never had anything like that in any of the previous books. He's much more about like calculating probabilities and that kind of stuff.
  
  

  Um, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah, yeah, yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And, but here's the first time when he said something like, I think it was something like he realized that the main cop wanted him in prison or like wanted him and you realize like, this is, I can't do anything here. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Or he's very limited in his actions and, um. So, yeah. So that's, that's one thing that there's a huge difference here is that he's, for one, for the first time that I've read, the person who's vulnerable and who kind of needs helping often.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Sure. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Whereas otherwise he's the guy helping other people. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Sure. Okay. And that's interesting. Yeah. I mean, but then the, the, the way he deals with it Right. He just like [00:37:00] stays calm. Yeah. Tries to figure it out. Right. That's the, I mean like he first gets into the holding cell in like the police station and he just tries to, I actually thought that was cool how he's like, he tries to read a newspaper to pass the time, but he can't really, 'cause he's so, you know 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Stuck in the situation. I thought that was really cool. 'cause it makes him kind of human. Right. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. And you don't kind of have that in the later ones almost. Or because maybe just 'cause it's a third person perspective and Lee Child never like, describes emotions from a third person perspective. He's more about describing action or what happens.
  
  

  Maybe it's the kind of thing you kind of get a hint of, but it's not as explicit. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Sure. Sure. Okay. So that's fun. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. So that, it was kind of funny for me, like knowing, I was gonna say he's vulnerable in this one after he beat like up several people. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. Like, yeah. It's like, it's like vulnerable and like, you know, he's like, oh shit, I have to deal with stuff.
  
  

  And then he does he, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah. But still the police thing is something he can't deal with, you know? [00:38:00] Yeah. I mean that's, that's the main difference here, is that in the physical confrontation, he still, I mean, I guess he still needed people to help him out at the end when there were three people against him or whatever, but in, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: but he doesn't even, right, because they just take the blame.
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: I think he beats up to Arian still. Like Arian Brotherhood. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. That's one thing I was actually slightly confused by, because I thought he completely beat them up, but then I thought after that he said something like that the guy still kind of. Yeah, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: no, I think so he beat them up and then these two, what's what they called again?
  
  

  Red gangs came and they were like, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: whatever. Yeah, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah. Like, like these, this other gang, they came and they said like, dude, leave, like, we'll take the blame. Kind of like, yeah, we'll like make it look all credit, beat up these five s Um, you know, because you get credit in jail for that. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: The red boys I think is the 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: red boys.
  
  

  That's it. Yeah. Um, I think that's it. I thought, I thought so, but yeah, I dunno. Okay. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, I dunno either 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: actually. So there is one thing though I was thinking about. Now he isn't super [00:39:00]vulnerable, right? 'cause even when he's initially jailed, he, at some point he's like, you know when you take him out the second time and they don't even like put a gun on him anymore.
  
  

  He's like, these guys like underestimate me, kind of. Right? He's like, of 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: course. But, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: so he's, he could have walked out there, he could have like, you know, kicked a guy in the neck or whatever and like walked out. But he knows he's, it's better to like sit it out. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, he's also in the middle of the woods, right?
  
  

  Like he. He's, uh, I mean, he might get somewhere, but he also, it's not, you know, sure. It's, it's one thing if you, it's one thing if you are beaten up, or like if you, you are facing like five people and they beat you up or whatever, and they leave you on the side of the road, it's a different thing. That's a different thing to the police is after you, and then in theory, there's an entire country's apparatus behind them.
  
  

  Like if he, like, if he kills a policeman, he's in trouble. Right. He knows that. Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That, that's true. Whereas he's killed other people without thinking about it. So that's a slight difference. I guess he, he could like in get out of that [00:40:00] situation, but not really the larger situation of him being accused of murder.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, but no, of course that's, I mean, yeah, even in, that's what I mean. Even when he is vulnerable, he's still kind of in control. Um, I have a few questions about the plot and. I like the few questions I have already go to, like they're kind of already slightly more towards what's gonna happen next. Sure.
  
  

  Um, I dunno whether you have anything else. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Not, not right away. I'm curious to hear what you've got also, because we've got 10 minutes. So. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. So the, the questions I have are more about like kind of some of the mysteries that the first part 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Sure. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Through up and that not through up. Can you say that, I don't know, I didn't mean puke and that are gonna be like the major plot points going forward.
  
  

  Um, sure. So what do you think, uh, what is pluribus? Uh, this word Yes. Written on the, with the phone number of the lawyer. 
  
  

  Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. The phone in his, that's hidden in the, that guy's boot. Right. I mean it, yeah, it must be some kind of criminal [00:41:00] organization that everyone in this village is somehow related to.
  
  

  Um, you 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: think it's an organization? Okay. I thought it might be a code word or something like that. I don't know. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. You've read more Lee Child books. I don Dunno. I mean, what, what's what I find 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: interesting ing No, I don't think, I didn't get this from the others. I just somehow assumed that I read bu because it's a, it's, it sounds, yeah, it's either an organization or code word, but you wouldn't write the organization in there if you like.
  
  

  Right. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, that's true. I mean, what I find interesting is, right, you know, on the back of the book they have like, you know, this, this little country or like, um, city, uh, or town mar like the image 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: you mean. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: No, no, on the back, like the back, the back flap. Margaret has just had its first homicide in 30 years.
  
  

  Right. Why do they need a completely new police station if they, if they never have homicides? Right. Because he, he really goes into detail about how new this police station is. Right? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Must have custom. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That's an [00:42:00] interesting, I didn't realize that at all. That's, that's a good point. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: They only have one detective.
  
  

  He's from outer town. Right. Um, so he probably, like, he's, he's, I don't know, like I, it's probably like, you know, they try to like force him to not look, you know, don't look at that part of town. I feel like it's all connected. This, what do you call, like, the stereotypical bat? Um, um, police chief is probably part of 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: it.
  
  

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the interesting thing, right? You have first the police chief who. I mean, in some part you can just say he has a clear suspect and it might be an easy case, so whatever. He's just gonna get that guy just so he has like a clear murder. But yeah, obviously something's really wrong because he doesn't even try to investigate.
  
  

  It's, so we're also have to say, we're assuming right now that Jack Reach is telling the truth. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: That's true. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I think, think it's fair to assume because Oh yeah, I've, I'd imagine he's telling the truth. Yeah. Assuming he's telling the truth and the, the officer and the police chief never [00:43:00] really tried to even investigate the whole thing.
  
  

  Right. He just kind of said like, there's a guy, that's it. We've got, we've got our guy stranger put him in prison. Yeah, exactly. Just someone, and in a way also reaches the perfect guy for this, right? Because he has no family, no one who's gonna stand up for him outside of jail or whatever. True. He's just a guy.
  
  

  He is. He's a nameless, homeless kind of guy. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Who, uh, is a perfect victim for. Uh, police corruption or whatever it 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: true. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: true. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But, so here's, okay, here's a question. So we don't know who, who committed the murder, but we know that Hubble has something in the slightest to do with it, even if he just heard about it.
  
  

  Right? Like they, he definitely did something or what saw something or whatever. And so here's my, not, I dunno, it's a question or point, but it says that Hubble is this like fancy banker or whatever. Mm-hmm. Who works like in the big city or whatever and [00:44:00] lives there. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Sounds like some sort of corruption, right?
  
  

  Like that's an easy way for Yeah. Him to, he just bought the new house and everything. I mean, to be fair, if he has a good banking job, then you can definitely afford a nice house like in the middle of nowhere, but 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, yeah. I'm wondering whether he has some sort of. He took money for something or laundered some money or something like that.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, probably like that because when he heard pluribus, that's when he flipped kind of, right? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, yeah, that's, he immediately said like, yeah, I did it. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Okay. I did it. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. So I wonder whether pluribus is maybe some sort of Yeah, that's what I mean, like code word for, or like the name they gave their Corona activity internally or whatever.
  
  

  Something like that. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Sure, sure. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, if we want to be like, if we wait, so is a Latin word, right? And um, okay, let me just [00:45:00] check so I don't get this wrong. So there is a famous. Oh, okay. I didn't realize it was this famous, uh, so there, there is a famous saying called Uri Unum. I thought that was just a saying, but it's actually the traditional motto of the United States.
  
  

  Um Oh, okay. And appears on the Great seal, uh, a seal as in not the animal, but, uh, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: disappointing. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Although there is a, an eagle underneath anyway, so, and it literally translates to one out of many. Um, so vu means in this case, just basically many. But that doesn't really help me. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: No. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: If it has, if I to have some sort of connection to a crime, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: it has to be like some link.
  
  

  Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But I dunno what it is. Yeah. But then 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: it's interesting. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So, yeah, I don't know. So I, I dunno what it is. The meaning of it itself seems just kind of generic, I have to say. [00:46:00] It's just a motto of the US and it means many. So it could, it could be anything really. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, this could be woven into like any plot line basically still.
  
  

  Yeah, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: exactly. Yeah. Uh, so the next, so there's a few questions, right? One question is, who was the guy who was murdered? The man who has his face shot off and was then beaten after he was already dead? 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I don't think there's, is there any relevant information in there? I, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: I don't think we have information on that yet.
  
  

  Right. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. He only has the link to Huble through the phone number, but, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: and he was on some generic farm, right? Or was it like a warehouse? Warehouse? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I can't 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: remember 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: exactly where it was found. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Okay. I think like outside of a warehouse. Um, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: okay. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Which is like, could also be anything still. Right. Did he have like dope in the warehouse or whatever, like launder money?
  
  

  I don't know. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Why was the police chief there? Actually? Because he saw, um, he said he saw Jack richer there. Like he had a, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: oh no, no. He said he saw him at midnight, I think. Not at the time of the [00:47:00] murder, but I think he said, if I remember correctly, he saw him at midnight. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Okay. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And then, although Wait, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: but he must have been at 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: murder?
  
  

  No, actually might've been, right? Yeah. Well, he was a police chief. He can probably say he was doing his patrol. Right. I mean, also he didn't see him like, if, if we're trusting Richa, then he didn't see 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: him. Yeah. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: You're just making this up, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: flying bastard. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But yeah. Okay. So, okay, let's see. I would then guess that, yeah, drug trafficking doesn't sound too bad, both as a courier and as a potential solution to this, what's happening in this book.
  
  

  Um, but yeah, I'd imagine that the, the, the financier has something to do with the financial side of maybe a drug deal or something. And then, I dunno, the police, let's maybe, okay, let's speculate here. The police just turned a blind eye or something because 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: they were being financed, they were getting money from it or something.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And then, but somehow this guy was still murdered though. Right. And that's [00:48:00] a big question. Why was he murdered? That's the next 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: thing you Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, 'cause we don't, we go, we don't know enough about him. Right. Yeah. We have nothing. Right. Like, was he like an undercover cop or whatever, you know?
  
  

  Oh, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah. Dunno. Just a 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: generic 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: back guy. Just a random guy who has no face anymore. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yes. And he got like severely beaten after his death. Right? I don't know. I mean, that could be interesting. That to me, seemed someone really disliked him. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But that to me seemed like more like the warning to other people to keep quiet.
  
  

  Right. Like, we're not only gonna kill you, we're gonna, you know, like I said, like with his children, like, we like, you know, we're gonna, what did they say? Like, we're gonna Well, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: things after your debt that you can't even imagine or something 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: like that. Yeah. You wouldn't even know about. Yeah, exactly. So I think that's kind of just a like.
  
  

  We're not joking. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. True. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: We're very serious about this. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: It's, it's real intimidation. Yeah. It's not just a red voice. It's, it's real. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. And then, okay, then there's a theory with the three people. That's another 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: that he said, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: right. Must, must have been three people. Correct? 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: If there were three people Yeah.
  
  

  One of them might, maybe one of them was [00:49:00] a policeman who knows. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Well, yeah. And oh, actually, you know, didn't, uh, the, what's his face? The one the policeman drove the banker home with his wife. That's three people. His wife is, might be super aggressive. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. And they just need someone to drive. Right. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: You need one.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: And there's this Yeah. And there's this, sorry, uh, to interrupt, but there's this, um, the guy who put richer and the Hubble on the wrong floor. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. That's the other guy I was as well. Yeah, exactly. That guy. Yeah, I mean, I guess maybe, so that was the, right, so here I could imagine it's just they, they, let's say they know who murdered the person and it was one of them or something like that.
  
  

  Or someone who they don't want to anger and they wanna please, then Richa is the easy target for murderer. And if he's killed then, you know, whatever, they can just say it was him and he can't defend himself. Right. 'cause he's dead. So I think that, I think that might have been that, that they basically said like, get rid of this guy.
  
  

  Um, he's our murderer. He's, he's, he's the murderer for this case. And if he's dead, then that's, we can just blame it on him. [00:50:00] 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And that's easy. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: But I mean, it is, it is in a way, it's almost too much of a nce. They couldn't have planned this. Right. It was just a lucky coincidence. 'cause they didn't know Richa was gonna come to their little town.
  
  

  Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Well assuming the murder, well maybe it was, I dunno whether that was planned either. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, true. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I don't know. Anyway, we've got like three minutes left, the recording. Um, yeah. But it seems like there's lots of, lots of mysteries over. Um, I think, I think we can just end this recording for now. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Can I, can I have one?
  
  

  Yeah. One real quick. Um, final word, false fact in there. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. Okay. So in, in prison, right? He, Jack Rees starts to think and he like reminisce about this guy who could sent to prison and he got raped by about 50 guys. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. With a pint of semen. Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yes. Pint of semen. I just looked it up. This is the tap.
  
  

  I, is that too much 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: or what? 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yes, it's too much. So where's my, is 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: that, is that an amount you took to prove of. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: My, my browser history from work is going down once again. Um, average milliliters of eec, ejaculatory fluid, um, median semen volume [00:51:00] is 3.7 milliliters and like a pint is like almost 500 milliliters.
  
  

  So that's way too much. It's like more like 150 milliliters. Um, would be 50 guys or like 200. Oh, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: they didn't say they only went once, right? 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. But yeah. Okay. But it decreases significantly. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I would fair, I feel like the pint might have been an exaggeration because it's funny and not a literal description because you know, here's the thing.
  
  

  I dunno about you, but usually I don't think about semen in pint glasses, but if you say a pint, you really think of a pint of beer. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: It is a lot. It is a lot. Yeah. Yeah. An excessive amount. No, I think you're right. But, um, I just, you know, I got curious if, if 50 guys really would produce that much, and I think that's a slight exaggeration.
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Well, maybe, yeah, I don't know. Maybe you should look more into that. Um, and, but anyway, you're, you're right. This is a great way to end this, uh, episode. So, um, with that thought, um, [00:52:00] yeah, we'll get every, I'll see you next week. So the next one is gonna be until, uh, again, seven chapters, so until chapter 15.
  
  

  So page 218 on the paper. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Got it.
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: By the way, today, I, I wrote down a two sentence introduction, which I'm very proud of. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Oh, nice. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. Uh, so here it goes. This is part two of our discussion of Lee Child's first novel. Kidding, Flo. Which not only introduced Jack Reacher, but also made KO Google average male ejaculate on his work computer.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. Yes, that's very true. Yeah. And I even talked about it proudly during lunch. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yes, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yes we 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: did. Um, yeah, if you dunno what this is referring to, maybe listen to bot one or don't just [00:53:00] Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Just be amazed. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Be, yeah, exactly. Just, uh, I mean, this is what you can expect from Kun. And I, I was gonna ask, have you, have you googled anything similar this week?
  
  

  You don't have to say what it is, but is there any major revelations? No. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: No fact checking. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: No 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: fact checking this week? No. Some complaints Okay. But no fact checking. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. That's fine. Complaints. Okay. That's a, that's a big one. Anyway. I think, uh, like as always, basically. We can start with a brief summary. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yep.
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: I mean, you'll do the summary and all the like, sound effects 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Of like people dying and that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, so chapter eight, hobble Tales Reacher that The Dead Gay, dead Gay, no, let's start again. Hobble Tales Reach is that the dead guy was a private investigator that Tubble hired.
  
  

  Hubble plays some small but important role in a very large deal. Hobble and Richer are released on Sunday. Reach is picked up by Roscoe. [00:54:00] Who confirms Rich's alibi, by the way, maybe I should have added, um, they were still in, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: still in prison. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: The holding cell then. Yeah, 
  
  

  yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Or in prison. Yeah, exactly. So chapter nine, richer Explores margrave, which is small and oddly well put together and almost too nice and affluent Riches sees Mrs.
  
  

  I dunno how to pronounce this. Kleiner Klin. I think it's Kleiner. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: I think Kleiner. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, yeah. Mrs. Kleiner, whose husband's foundation made the town rich. She seemed terrified of, uh, her stepson, basically. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. Who's waiting in the car? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, exactly. Who's waiting in the car? A second victim is found. Probably murdered at the same time and place, but somehow kind of hidden.
  
  

  He wasn't. Im like, he wasn't immediately found, but he was kind of the same place. The first victim is identified as Reach's brother. Chapter 10. Reach expresses his mourning by having sex with Roscoe. He decides to [00:55:00] do something about his brother's murder. The Kleiner's son stares at Richa in a diner.
  
  

  Hubble seems to be dead. Chapter 11, Richa realizes that it was Hubble who was supposed to have been killed in prison rather than him. Police Chief Morrison and Morrison's wife are brutally murdered. Chapter 12, Richard trusts Finlay to not be corrupt. They visit Morrison's house and Reacher steals Morrison's switchblade.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yes, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I only, I only mentioned that one because there's this, I dunno what it's from. I think it's in theater. Checkoff, I think. I think he was the guy or something who said like if in act one there's a gun, it will be used in part in part three. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Ah, really? Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That's why I wrote that down. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: I mean, he's definitely gonna use the switchblade, right?
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. But it seemed, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Very specific that he stole. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Exactly. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Anyway, chapter 13, Reacher tells Finley everything he knows about the case, including that whoever is the next police chief [00:56:00] is, uh, in on the whole criminal activity. The Kleiner kid tells Richard that Roscoe is his. Richard Disagrees Chapter 14.
  
  

  Mayor Thiel is the new police chief. He tells Richard to leave town. Richard disagrees. Finlay gets an old FBI friend to bring Hubble's wife and children into safety. That's a summary. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: That's 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: a 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: summary. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Maybe I should have mentioned at the beginning, uh, we're doing chapters eight to 14. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So, yeah, a lot happened.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: A lot happened. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess, I think the first chapter we read was already like, you know the, the dead guy is his brother, right? The first guy who got killed, or the second chapter? No, it 
  
  

  was 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: chapter nine. Yeah, the chapter nine 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: second. Yeah, the second we one we read. Yeah. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: it's like, who, you know, that's the big one.
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Exactly. And then you had, I guess we have, we had the introduction of new characters, the Kleins 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: declines. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. To it before. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Then of course, Fe Chief Morrison [00:57:00] being, I guess it was kind of obvious from the beginning. Yeah. That he was one of the bad guys. But yeah, that happened then 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: with, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: actually, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: sorry, go on.
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Oh yeah. Yeah. That one also really confused me for a while because it took me like a few pages on the next chapter to, it's like, was Habu also method or not? Like I didn't. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: at the same, it wasn't super clear to me. I guess the whole point is that at least Richer believes that he is dead. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. He's missing, right.
  
  

  Hubble? Hubble is gone. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I mean, that's the thing, right? His wife says that, uh, she must feel it if he's dead and why thinks Yeah, he's dead. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But it's, it's an open question because I guess it's as long as nobody, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: no crime yet. Yeah, yeah, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah. Although actually I, it's funny, no body, no crime. There's, so, you know, I said I, or as I've mentioned to you, like I sometimes listen to the Side Fabrication podcast.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Mm-hmm. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Which is site's like, you know, a big weekly newspaper in Germany anyway, that side [00:58:00] fabrication is like about crimes and that kinda stuff. And I was once really surprised that you can be convicted for life without the actually being a, a victim. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Really? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Like they had a case where no one f someone was missing.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: They didn't know where the person was. Yeah. And someone went to prison for life for it. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Really? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I thought, yeah. Like 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: legally, like, you know. Yeah. Not like, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: huh? No, no. It's 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: so Dexter lied to me. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I, I dunno. To Dexter. And also, I mean, of course this is different countries, right? Different, sure. Different law systems.
  
  

  But 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: I, I always thought like, but how can you prove something? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I, I'm completely, uh, with you on this one. I, I also thought like, how can you convict of a crime if there's no, if, if there's no, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: we didn't actually confess or like, but even then you'd be mentally ill, right? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I dunno. It was just a case where, I mean, it, it's kind of thing, right?
  
  

  Where it seemed fairly obvious that the guy did something to his wife or whatever. I can't remember what it was. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Sure. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, and [00:59:00] the, the, they basically believed that, I think he killed her and then like, dug her up or like, not dug her up, but like buried her somewhere in the woods. Sure. I just couldn't find it.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But yeah, so, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: oh, that's interesting. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I didn't know that either. Yeah. And. I'm still, I'm not sure I like that fact. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. Well anyway, I mean I guess the evidence must be like really, really there or something. I dunno. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I wasn't super convinced, but yeah, I can't remember enough details now to 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, sure.
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Anyway, the point is, uh, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: he's gone, his wife gone, thinks he's, he's not that Richard thinks he is. Yes. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Richard definitely thinks he's dead. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. I guess one other, one other cliffhanger is that, did Ms. Morrison eat her husband's balls?
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That's what we're all waiting for. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: That's, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, the auto autopsy is gonna come in at some point. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, exactly. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, I It seems like the answer will be yes. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, this, they seem that [01:00:00] whoever is behind these threats so far seem to follow through on them pretty well. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. Yeah. They 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: seem quite, so you would imagine that, uh.
  
  

  Yeah, that probably happened, but you have to wait until at least, uh, the next part to find out. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Can't, can't wait, can't wait. I'm happy to doing an extra. That's 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: pretty much the only thing you care about. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: I'm happy doing an extra session today so we can like, you know, I can get there. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, exactly. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Quicker.
  
  

  Okay, so we have recliners who introduced, I guess the barber. I mean, we don't, we know a little bit more about this, about Reve, right? There's this, he went to this general store kind of thing, right? He had a coffee there. Richer. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: And then he went to the barber and he asked about recliners. Right.
  
  

  Uh, this, this rich family. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Did he ask about them or just about the town and then, like those names came up. I can't remember. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, I, I think he asked specifically for them, and then the barbers were like, we'll talk to you about anything but not 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Ah, okay. Okay, okay. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Right. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I can't. [01:01:00] I can't remember the details.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Okay. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But anyway, there seems to be, I don't know, I mean, I guess the, the steps on at the end had the attitude of I'm bridge, I run things. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, so that's probably going to come to some sort of further conflict with 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Richard. I mean, I think he's setting them up now for us to like, think recliners are the, the bad guys, right.
  
  

  The, the ringleaders basically y 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Ish. Right? Because his wife, the wife is kind of sick. It's too 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: obvious, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: And the stepson is a bit of a dick. He wants Roscoe. I think he wants, um, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: oh, I mean, he said, right. That's, that was, he was very, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah, sure. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: He's been waiting for five years.
  
  

  I don't exactly know what that's about. How old is he again? 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Sim I dunno, I dunno how old he is 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: because I thought he was fairly young. I dunno, maybe he was like 14. I was like, I 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Who like the the stepson you mean? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Well I thought like he, now he's 18 or something, or 19, but maybe I got the age wrong. So I was just curious.
  
  

  If he's [01:02:00] been waiting for five years, then he must have been 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Well man can 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: dream. He must have, yeah. And, uh, good perseverance, if that's what you wanna call it. Um, it doesn't seem like he's ever talked to her as far as I can tell, but 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: No, no, no. Yeah, exactly. That's 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: from the distance he's made a decision. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah.
  
  

  Yeah. I think that's called stalking. Um, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: no, I 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: guess it's not. Um, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I don't know. Maybe he's just, uh, I guess like if you wanna in a small town like that. Even without stalking, you're gonna see most people fairly regularly, especially if they have like a public job. Uh, so I could imagine even without stalking, he could have seen her quite a lot.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: That's true. That's true. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Just because, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah, there's 
  
  

  nothing 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: much 12 people in that town. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, actually, but talking of, uh, Roscoe, so one question I had, which they kind of answered in here, but I'm still kind of questioning it, is, do you think Roscoe is being sincere about, well, not sincere, but do you think maybe she's in on it?
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: [01:03:00] Oh. And you think 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: she's like, because you know, at first I thought, okay, the whole like romance stuff mm-hmm. Was kind of a bit clumsily written. Sure. How in the beginning, like she immediately liked him, she winked at him and all this kind of stuff, and it, it just seemed a bit too much. And at first I thought, okay, it's his first book.
  
  

  He's learning how to write. But now I'm, I, there was just one point where I started wondering like maybe. Maybe not, maybe, maybe this is well written. Uh, because there have been a few things here where I thought something wasn't particularly well written and then it kind of came back a few chapters later.
  
  

  Yeah. So I'm, I dunno, I still, I'd probably guess like 60, 65% that she's like, it's good. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Oh, whatever. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Like what we read is exactly what happens. Yeah, 
  
  

  yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: What she wants and all that kinda stuff. Yeah. Uh, but there's still a solid part of me that's thinking, yeah. Mm. But it all went a bit too fast and a bit too easy.
  
  

  She picked him up immediately. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Well, he's 6.5, right? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: [01:04:00] Yeah. But yeah, just because someone's tall, that doesn't mean you fall in love with them. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Oh, okay. Tender. Lie to me. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: So yeah, that could, I never thought about this, I have to admit, I just, I fell for it like a sucker. Um, why would she get him out of jail?
  
  

  Right? Why not give him another chance to kill him in jail or like, of 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: course. And that's, that's Richard's argument, right? He says that's, that's what he tells Finley, right? That's he says like, it's, it's Roscoe, you and me because Roscoe's not in it, because she, uh, picked me up, which is the exact opposite of what they want.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: That's true. He may, she might be starting up for like a big one. Yeah, that's true. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Again, yeah. That's the thing. Like also, why, why would she pick him up? Because the police messed up. Yeah. I mean, of course you 
  
  

  could 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: say because she writes him. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, that could be. Yeah. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But also, yeah, I'm, I'm not sure.
  
  

  Maybe it, as I said, it seemed 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: there has to be almost one of them. Okay. So, so what we've got now, right, basically we've got these Hubble set in jail. I think that was [01:05:00] in this part that we we're talking about. There's basically 10 people who know of this, of like, of the something bad going on, right? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: was it just 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: based itself?
  
  

  I think that was, it was either this, it was either chapter eight or probably seven. Yeah. Can't remember. But yeah, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: so there's 10 people. We've got a couple of them, like dad or missing, like Huble is one of them. Morrison, like the two hub 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: wasn't one of them. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Sorry, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Hobel wasn't, I thought he was of the 10 I, but he said he was not one of the 10 him.
  
  

  Oh, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: okay. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And the guy he hired were not part of them. So there's basically, that's, that's what he says towards, I can remember this because I read this half an hour ago. Um, um, no, because he, he explicitly tells Finley that, um, there's 10 people in on it, uh, not including those two. Oh, okay. And Morrison's dead.
  
  

  And then Finlay says, great. Now I've got nine more people left. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Okay. Okay. Okay. I thought Hubba was okay and then they think this, um, mayor who's gonna take over Yeah. Teal East, one teal, he should be on it. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, that's pretty [01:06:00] obvious. Yeah, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah. Okay. But then, okay. I thought we could already like number it down a lot more, but we can't actually.
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, but the thing is right, if that's so, I mean, the Kleins have something to do with it, right? Must So there's at least one of them that must. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I mean, maybe not that they're head of something, but I mean they financed everything and Yeah, they definitely something 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: to 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: do 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: it. Well, they is super rich and they're trying to keep the city clean.
  
  

  Right. So there's some They must be hiding 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: something. Yeah. Yeah. And they hired the police department, gave them Yeah. Whatever. Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So, but that's still, let's say it's at least one of them. So that, so we've got, uh, with those three, we've got Morrison Te, or at least one of the Kleins, so that's probably seven people.
  
  

  We haven't had that many characters in the book yet, so. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Exactly. Yeah, that's true. Because all the police, the policemen were, were clean kind of. Right. That's the idea now, because none of them has become police chief. Right. That's the idea. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, but that doesn't just because the others, only one person can accompany his chief.
  
  

  Right? 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. True. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So, 
  
  

  but 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: that, the fact that they chose an outsider, which is the mayor and not one of the [01:07:00]policemen, I think was like Jack richer reasoning. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Oh, and um, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah, the, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: sorry to, um, the. Prison. The prison, um, um, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: oh yeah. Yes. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Director, whatever. Bivy, whatever his name was. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Spivey. Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: He must be in it as well.
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yes, of course. He was in on it. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: So that's 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: four. So, so we've got four. So still got six left. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Six left. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So there's a solid chance. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: So Roscoe. Roscoe, yeah, she's that to me now. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Maybe, maybe, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: I don't know. Milk it. I would say to reach her, milk it as for as long as you can and kill her. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But only once you know she's in on it.
  
  

  Don't just kill people. Yeah. You know, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: don't, yeah. Don't, don't do it in case. 'cause you can case. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: This is also, I mean, this podcast also features lots of life's lessons. This is one of the life lessons. Don't kill people just in case. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. You know? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: I would suggest have 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: some evidence first. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. And like if you do it just hiding, the body's not enough in Germany, so.
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yes, exactly. You need to get someone else [01:08:00] to stand in for your crime, basically. You have to 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Frame someone else. Yeah, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah, yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Anyway, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: so moving on from that life lesson. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yes. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Um, let's go to the next life lesson. Um, which is,
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: it sounds like you have one or not, or are you No, I 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: don't try to, I'm, I'm thinking very hard. Trying to, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: okay. Okay. You're trying to improvise a life lesson 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: and, yeah. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I don't enough. This is. Improvisational skill. We're witnessing it right now. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: It's exciting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to start cutting here, Ben, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: because I see I, the facial expression is somewhere between mild terror and amusement at your own failure.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. So, yeah, I would, yeah. I think improv is harder than you think it is. Um, it's like, yeah. You know, it always seems so easy, but then you're standing there, the lights are on. You, you, you fail. Um, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: you are asked to provide life lessons. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. I mean, you, I kind of set myself up for this, right? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. To be, [01:09:00] I didn't even ask you specifically.
  
  

  Yeah, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: no. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Anyway, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: I just fucked up. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But yeah, so that was like, one of the questions I had is, you know, is Roscoe in on, on this? Good 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: point. Good 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: point. And yeah, I mean, I, I don't have anything other than it seemed a bit fast. Everything. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: You know, it's like, it's not like there's anything. You know, I mean, if she is on it, then she's playing the part.
  
  

  Well we, if then we have to give that to her. She's even doing lots of paperwork for, oh, well I guess she maybe doesn't have to do the paperwork for Teal if he knows that she has, doesn't have to do, you know. Um, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: sure, yeah. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, but actually, uh, okay. Actually that's one thing I remember from this, which I found interesting, which is, um, I quite, it was kind of slightly weirdly written, but I quite liked how richer realized that he was not the guy who was supposed to get killed in prison.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Mm-hmm. Sure. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: The whole how, [01:10:00] because I found that at first really confusing how he's talking about the waitresses, right? And it's like, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah, yeah, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah. One was this, one was that, and I thought like, okay, come on. Like, do you have doing to describe them that much? Like this is really weird. And then one had glasses is like a distinct feature.
  
  

  Like it's not, it's unambiguous, right? And then I was like, okay, well what's it going on? Like, what is like, and then, you know, the big revelation that the guy had got his glasses broken by the other gang in prison. Yeah. And then reacher wore the sunglasses that Yeah. Were the kind that only are sunglasses when.
  
  

  Light one 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: light hits them. Yeah, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: exactly. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, you're right. That was really cool. And I, I, I have to admit like, like two sentences before the reveal, I was like, oh my God, he was wearing this, you know? So I had like this little, yeah, no, that was very well written. I really liked that. Yeah. And then he realized like, 'cause that's a fun thing, right?
  
  

  Because that's how he build it up with two waitresses. 'cause like res like, you know, this massive ripped guy and Hubble, you know, isn't, um, so he could have said like, it's a tiny, a huge guy. Yeah, it's a huge guy. I'm sorry. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: No, sorry. The tiny guy. Yeah. Right. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, it's, yeah, I attacked a tiny guy and they don't, it's like, it's the guy with glasses.[01:11:00] 
  
  

  Yeah. So that's really, yeah, that was really well done. Yeah, exactly. After to a admit. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: you're right. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That was, you know, so Five pin, not exactly critical of the writing, but you know, it's, you know, as I said, like it's the first novel and the first thing he wrote. So kinda should be expected. But that was pretty good.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, I mean, I mean there's a reason he got picked up, right? I mean, it's, it's not that he had some talent or So he practiced before, I assume. Right? I mean, I don't think it's like a diamond and a rough completely. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, as far as I can tell he hadn't written anything before this 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: really. Okay. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Hmm.
  
  

  Okay. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, to be fair, like he was, so, I, I can do a bit more on this because as I mentioned last time, I'm reading this other book and I have a few highlights I wrote down about 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Sure. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That we can maybe do in, in 20 minutes or so. Yeah. Um, but if I remember correctly, you know, he was in his probably roughly the same age as Richard, like mid to late thirties or something.
  
  

  Yeah. And so the author Lee out, he just got fired from television. So he [01:12:00] had been working at television for quite a while. So I mean, I dunno whether he'd just been doing production and had like nothing to do with any creative work. But I could imagine just if your job is in something he. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: There's always a 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: narrative, more time thinking about it.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But I don't know, then again, that's maybe like saying, you know, a secretary in science would pick up science on the way. So I dunno, I, I dunno know exactly what his, I mean, he wasn't a, you know, a writer for television. Sure. That wasn't his job. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. Yeah, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: exactly. I think he was on the production side, but yeah, no, I think this was, this is I think the first thing that he wrote.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. Well, he seems to do well. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, he seems he's doing very well for himself. Yeah. Actually, shall we just talk about it now then? Uh, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah, just do it. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, like, I guess we can, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, so there's a few things, so I don't know exactly if this is gonna work. So I, I bought the other, I have the other book on my Kindle so I can highlight stuff and in theory I can look through my notes now.
  
  

  Ah, yeah. Um, like through all the highlights and. [01:13:00] Maybe actually. Okay, so here's, so actually the, the book is by Andy Martin and it's called Richer Said Nothing like, I think that's the most common sentence in the read novels. 'cause Richard doesn't really talk much. That's kind of what I said last time.
  
  

  He's kind of quite talkative in this one. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: sure. It's a lot more kind of detective work going on in this one and talking to other people, whereas the others, he's usually quite silent. That's what the book's called Richer Said Nothing. Anyway. So here's a few sentences from Richer Said Nothing about how uh, Lee Child wrote the first book, quote.
  
  

  He wrote the first chapter, killing floor, chapter one, then showed it to his wife. Everything depended on what she said. He could keep on with chapter two or we could go and apply for the warehouseman job. She read what he had written and then put it down. Wait, what the fuck's the rest of the quote. Wait, where's the rest of the quote?
  
  

  Okay, sorry. This is 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: amateur. Nick, you only highlighted a part. [01:14:00] 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, I highlighted like, uh, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: what does his wife say? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Now? I've completely lost, like, I dunno, I've never highlighted stuff in the kindle. Hmm. I can highlight stuff in my highlights that's useful. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Oh, that's very, very helpful. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. I seem to have lost the rest of that quote.
  
  

  Um, anyway, so the idea is so, so, uh, why, why I wanted to read that is because there was this like job working in a warehouse that he considered applying for. Mm-hmm. And then he thought, ah, fuck it. I'll just try and write this thing. So he wrote the first chapter, by the way, he wrote apparently the entire first book with pen and pencil.
  
  

  Um, so the entire thing cost like two euros or whatever in terms of production costs for the first draft. Um, but yeah, so he read the, he wrote the first chapter, then showed it his wife, and she said, yeah, this might. Continue my 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: work. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. That's my work. That's 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: cool. That's very 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: cool. And then he just, I guess, continued [01:15:00] doing it.
  
  

  And, uh, there's also, I dunno whether I highlighted this, but there is also something about like how the first stuff kind of got picked up and I think it was something like one of the first readers who randomly read it. 'cause you know, this wasn't a big announcement. Here's this big, here's this true writer, whatever.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I think it started off pretty inconspicuously and I think basically one of the first readers said, this is the new thing. Like this is gonna be a huge series. Oh, wow. Yeah. And she said something like, what'd she say? She said, buy three copies of this book, the first for yourself, the second to give to someone else, and the third to keep as a first edition.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Oh, damn. Okay. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. So like, she she 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: knew what she was talking about. Yeah, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: exactly. So for some reason this person, I don't know who, I can't remember who she was. Yeah. Um, I don't even know whether she had any literary influence or whether she was literally just a random reader. Um, but. Yeah. That that was the, she 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: knew something was up, but Yeah, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: exactly.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: That's, that's really interesting. I guess it also has to depend a bit on the side [01:16:00] guys or whatever. Right. Maybe like in the, what is it, late nineties, like stuff like this was kind of new. I don't know. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, I don't, I mean this was mid, mid nineties I believe. Um, wasn't it? 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Okay. I thought it was 99, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: something like that.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: 97. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Oh, okay. Okay. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: 98 first publishing Great Britain in 1998. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Oh, okay. Um, so there's a few things that, um, just a few notes I have that relate to some of the stuff we talked about last time and that I can answer it better. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: One thing is about, we asked about how old Richa is in Yeah. All the other books and that kind of stuff.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And so, um, the quote here goes, A lot of people were wondering about Richa getting older. I'd heard the question asked a few times, how old is he now? Is he over the hill? A what? Lee reckoned he was around 48 now. Maybe a bit older. I used to be very specific, but now I just don't mention it. Okay. So this was written in.
  
  

  Four years ago or something. So it seems like he actually did kind of age through the books and we are getting the guy who's 36. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. Fresh out of the military, talks a [01:17:00] lot. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Exactly. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Okay, that's interesting. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Then another is about, we mentioned the whole films and Tom Cruise thing. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So I just want to make that slightly more precise.
  
  

  So here's again a quote from Richa Said Nothing by Andy Martin. I have taken a vow to keep off the subject of Tom Cruise who played Richa in the Jack Richa movie based on one shot. He has already received around 1 million emails from Pam saying, you sought us out, you bastard. Or words that effect. He sends out a tweet about what he had for breakfast and they'll all tweet back to him, but why Tom Cruise?
  
  

  Some people said, what about Daniel Craig? Well, what about Daniel Craig? I said he's even shorter. Lee Lee shot back. He had actually met Daniel Craig and knew him well enough to call him Danny. Likewise, Clint Eastwood, they're all shrimps. So apparently all the tough guys in films are very, very short, so mm-hmm.
  
  

  None of them would be a better reacher than Tom Cruise. At least that's, that's at least that's how it's Lee Child's opinion. I like the word [01:18:00] shrimp. I've never heard anyone call anyone else shrimp. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: No. Okay. So, so that's saddled and, um, Tom Cruise is the best pick. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Exactly. Actually. Okay. Here's something interesting.
  
  

  We talked about TV and his writing and whether that influenced him. Yeah. So I ha I don't, still don't know exactly what he did in tv, but here this mm-hmm. Mentions about his writing. So do you have any kind of strategy for writing or rules or whatever? I only really have one. You should write the fast stuff slow and the slow stuff fast.
  
  

  I picked that up from tv. Think about how they shoot break breaking waves. It's always in slow motion. Same thing. You could spend pages on pulling the trigger die, trying all the mechanics, uh, yeah, all the mechanics and chemistry firing a shot like calculus and what happens to the bullet afterwards?
  
  

  That's the thing most writers forget. They think it's just pull the trigger. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Oh, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: so he did mention that he learned something from tv? 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, I guess so. I see. That's what I think. Like there's always a [01:19:00] narrative in tv and even if you're not on the creative side, you still have to like cut it like that or whatever.
  
  

  Right? Yeah. I mean, it's still creative, I guess. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Well, I have no idea. But the thing as I meant like he could also, I dunno what his job was, but he could also have been just a guy sorting out the finances or whatever, right? Or um, yeah, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah. I dunno. Yeah, you don't know. I mean, you don't know what's, what's in there, right?
  
  

  I mean, one thing I have to say about his writing style is what really? Um. Surprise me, but not in a bad way. It's just like, because I'm trying to like read this book a bit more detailed is how short his sentences are. Oh 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Like it's almost, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: that gets shorter in the future. Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Really even shorter.
  
  

  Okay. Yeah. That's interesting. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Yeah. He does a lot of this starting a sentence with, which says something like, I dunno, richer, couldn't eat anything. Full stop. Which is fine by him. Full stop. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, here's another, okay. So called, you know these books, right? Yeah. They're like 500 pages long.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. [01:20:00] 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And I think somewhere said they're often like a hundred thousand words or something. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Okay. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Do you wanna guess how he writes his books now? He doesn't do it with, uh, with, with pen and pencil anymore. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: He doesn't 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: know words pencil on paper. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: He does it. He he types it out on his computer. And do you know how, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: um, I don't know.
  
  

  No, I mean, like you're, he's calling the words or whatever, or like, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: no, no. So yeah, this is a very open question though. The, um, here's a, here's a quote, lead types with two fingers only the index fingers. Yeah, exactly. So that's how you write a hundred thousand Word book in like four months. Apparently you type it's four months, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Jesus Christ.
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Something like that. And then, I mean, one of the reasons why his books are so successful is because, you know, I think he does a lot of promo around it. And so, you know, he does a new book every year. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: He does some promo around it. Yeah. There's also always a, a bit of time for, you know, to, for the book [01:21:00] to be actually made, like type set and that kinda stuff.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Mm-hmm. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So you have to get it done in quite a lot less than. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess, yeah. That's interesting. I mean, I guess that's how Jack Richie would type if he would, if he would type right. I guess not even with two fingers, he would be like searching, you know, like, like, like back in the day.
  
  

  Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I mean that's, I mean, that's the whole thing with Rich also, right? He doesn't have a mobile phone or anything. He's never, there's in the, in the book that, um, the other book I mentioned last time, the past tense or whatever, he has to use a computer. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: He's not very good at it. He, he can just about kind of 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: like make do 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah.
  
  

  He's, he, he can just about get through it. Yeah, there's a lot of other stuff. How he basically very, he does fairly little revisions on his book, and he, it's, and he actually works through it from beginning to end. So he, like, the thing they start with is that he doesn't know what's gonna happen. So in this Oh, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: really?
  
  

  Okay. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. He [01:22:00] actually has no idea. So in this one it's, it's, it's like a kind of self exploration almost where he, so they talk here about how they're writing, I can't remember which, which novel they're writing, but they're writing one of the regional novels and, you know, uh, Andy Martin is kind of watching him do it more or less the entire time.
  
  

  Yeah, sure. So he is sitting there in the same movie, him and they talk about how, like, you know, on day one or whatever, he barely wrote anything and then on day, but he kind of wrote like, the beginning of that thing is something like, there's this huge guy who's killed in a field or something somewhere, you know, they're all kind of very similar, right?
  
  

  It's, yeah, yeah. Somewhere Midwest or something, rural areas of, of the US someone gets killed or whatever. So he starts off that way and then. Kind of, they talk about like how, how Lee Child himself goes like, Hmm, who is that guy? Like, who's the guy who just got killed here? 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Like, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: oh, that's cool. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Why in this field?
  
  

  That kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And then, and then I think the end of the chapter, something like, uh, Reacher leaves a just gets out of a [01:23:00] train somewhere. And like in, very similar to this one, he kind of just Yeah. Gets outta the train close by and he is like, Hmm, sure, okay. Yeah, 
  
  

  yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Who's this other guy? And then he goes like, okay, so Kiva sounds a bit like richer.
  
  

  So Kiva's the name of the big guy who was just killed. And he thought, okay. And then like in this case, the, the Andy Martin, the author of the other book. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Mm-hmm. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, it's like, yeah, it really sounds very similar. And you know, Kiva's also a really big guy. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: It's like, yeah, maybe, maybe they get confused or something, and then they kind of build it up that way.
  
  

  That's so fun. You know, he doesn't like plot it out. He says he kind of starts with nothing or just a scene. Yeah. And goes, Hmm, I wonder what happens next. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Oh, that's very fun. Yeah. So it's like, I wonder if he then ties it back in like stuff like with the glasses in prison, right. If he then goes back Exactly.
  
  

  It's like, oh yeah, give him glasses. I assume he must do that. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, sometimes probably. And I dunno whether his writing styles changed slightly over the time. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Probably. I mean, you, you develop right? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: No, they, I mean he does rewrite stuff, so if example, he did like rewrite some, he did change some words because [01:24:00] some, he's actually, you know, he's very, you know, you can often think, okay, these are like, you know, it's pulp fiction.
  
  

  It's just you write it quickly. You read it quickly, you don't think about it too much. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But he does at least, um, even though he doesn't rewrite, it seems like later on he doesn't like go back much and then change something. Yeah. And you know, like a version 2, 3, 4, 5 of a book. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: he did.
  
  

  I think like on day one he wrote like parts of the first chapter and or two paragraphs or a page or whatever. And then on day two he, he kind of changed around a few words on a very like, linguistic level, like what kind of the words mean, that kinda stuff. So he is 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: sure, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: you know, he's aiming for very basic, very straightforward language.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But he does, he is, it seems to be very aware of implications, subtle implications of words and that kind of stuff, so it's 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Got it. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. It's, it's as a way as with everything in life. Um, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: it's a beautiful life lesson. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, so no, what I meant was like I, as with everything in life, yeah. It's stuff that seems easy.
  
  

  It's usually a [01:25:00] lot of work. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's what I expect. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Here's a, we, we talked about how reach is doing. Well, uh, here's a, a paragraph about that. Later that day, I'm with Lee in the back of a limousine writing to another TV studio downtown chauffer driven or very sua. The sales figures were just coming in from the uk first week of publication.
  
  

  Personal, uh, personal was the name of the previous book, um, that he was just selling while he was writing his next book. Personal was number one, of course, but the really interesting thing I noticed pouring over the stats was that it was outsell the next 13 combined. Wow. It's a massacre. Explained. The opposition has been comprehensively an annihilated.
  
  

  See, these rich books really sell a lot. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: They really sell. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. I mean, but that's it, right? I mean. I mean this in like the best way. It's like, it is just good entertainment, right? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: It's like watching an action movie. [01:26:00] It's like, you know, you're in there, you're nice. Reading still feels a lot more, and I think it is quote unquote better than watching a movie.
  
  

  Right. You're at least like doing something still, like not passively observing. No. Yeah. I mean, I have to admit, I don't know why I disliked the first one you gave me, kind of, or was that, um, selling point, past tense. Something past tense. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Dunno where selling point comes from. Um, yeah, no, I'm, I'm enjoying it.
  
  

  I feel like, you know, I get to reach up this really fast. Um, so yeah, it works. He's got a golden formula. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Actually, one thing I found really interesting is that, uh, here's another piece that doesn't really relate to anything we said, but I find kinda interesting, which is another piece of research had been carried out in the uk.
  
  

  Apparently Lee Child was the author most readers wanted to get to know. So he seems, I don't know mean it is, of course interesting, right. The guy who writes reacher. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, yeah. What's wrong with him? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, sorry. I found a, I found a quota about the writing of the first book. Yeah. Um, some guy, uh, they were talking [01:27:00] about a guy called Joe before.
  
  

  I can't remember who he was, but Joe loved the fact that Lee had written Killing, flaw and Pencil. It was so, not primadonna, not even a typewriter. September 1st, 1994, three pads of a four, the kind with lines, one pencil, one pencil sharpener, and an eraser. That was what he had bought at the Ondale Center.
  
  

  It cost three pounds 99. He remembered precisely, he wrote the hold of the hold of the first draft and pencil the second in pen and the third on someone else's laptop. Wait, that's different than I remember. Okay. It took a day and a half for the printer to print it all out. Oh, sorry. First draft. Yeah.
  
  

  Sorry. Not Not first draft. Draft. First draft draft. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: That's crazy. You know what? I think he does really well. What I, what I think would be the hardest about writing is like naming people. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Sorry, just very briefly. Those were the quotes I had from the other book. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Those were the quotes. Okay.
  
  

  Yep. Sorry, I, I, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: no, no. Yeah, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: I started too, too soon. Like, don't you think like, naming people is the hardest thing and he just does it? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I dunno how he does it. I know, I know [01:28:00] of some writers, so I know Jean Simonon, who's in a, he, that's a whole nother story. He's a crazy writer, but he wrote lots and lots and very fast and he apparently, I think he just took a, he had a phone book next to him and just looked through names and just took those, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah.
  
  

  Okay. Makes, makes complete sense. Yeah, he probably does the same. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Oh, actually there is a funny thing about a name. Uh, so I don't have the quote in front of me right now, but there was one passage in the other book house, some fan of him. Uh, on like some, uh, they were doing some interview live show on radio, whatever.
  
  

  Yeah. And how this one guy said, oh, my mom's your big, your like the biggest fan of yours, or whatever. And it's like, oh, what's the name? And then I can't remember what the name was. But then that name became a character in Yeah. That, and apparently there's lots of people who like write to him saying like, Hey, can you make me the bad guy?
  
  

  Or one of the victims, like one of the guys who evicted who, who reached it completely annihilates. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah. Or one of the like, bad bosses or whatever. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: That's so cool. Yeah. That's fun. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I just imagine [01:29:00] you're like, you're, you're reading a Lee Hard book. You know, it's, it's a book set, I don't know, in the Netherlands or something.
  
  

  And then suddenly the guy called Four Lease Comes and Richard just completely smacks him 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: his shit outta here. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Exactly. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you're like, you know, the guy like in the end like even Cries, cries a little bit, you know, he really like writes it in. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, that would be pretty cool though, right?
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, it would be cool. Yeah. Yeah. I would like to get killed off by Richa. Yeah. I, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, I'm sure you'll find similar guys you can try it out with if you want to get killed. Yeah. I, but someone like that, I, I think there are more people like that than we realize usually. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Well, I wonder about this, right?
  
  

  Like, you know, it's this like also, oh, yeah. See, I wanted to look this up and I forgot. I want to look like how cool is military police actually, right? Ah, okay. Or like, are there like a bunch of like nerdy military police guys, like going like, yeah, richer, like, you know. Yeah. I'm like richer. But in reality they're just like typing behind their laptop, you know, kind of getting a [01:30:00] belly.
  
  

  I'm not saying this, I'm not saying IT this about military police in case anyone, um, like is from the ministry please. In case they are like richer and like, they come from me now. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, if you just me email me, I'll send you Koon's address. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. It'll 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: meet 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: you. To 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: be fair actually, yeah. They 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: can track me down.
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. By googling your name and seeing the. Address of our office. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, exactly. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: It's pretty easy to find. Yeah, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: it's pretty easy to find me. I won't put up resistance if you do it fast. Like, you know, if you do it fast, just break my neck. I won't put up resistance. I don't wanna suffer, that's all. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Just let me film it.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. It's like getting like, you know, getting out. Yeah. I'm not going to, I'm not gonna talk about animals. I almost went there. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. Then we don't have to sense yourself, but that's fine. I think, uh, yeah. Uh, I think we've slightly gone, uh, off track anyway. We don't 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: track a bit. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Um, well then again, the weird thing is like, I feel like with the, with this kind of book, there isn't that much.
  
  

  I realized like, you know, I said [01:31:00] before we did crown punishment, there was always a lot of stuff to talk about the book itself. Mm-hmm. Because there was. Kind of intentionally uncertain things about the book, why one person did this, who this person is. But here, it seems like we've kind of talked about most of that already, right?
  
  

  Like it's Yeah, yeah. Kind of the main characters. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Oh, one character we missed, um, Hubbel's wife, Charlie. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: And it's good. She seems also a little too cool about this. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: You reckon 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: you mean? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: because she was like, because she even went to him like the first time Roscoe and him went to his house.
  
  

  Right. Or, or the house of the Hubble. She was kind of like, you know, in a bad mood and everything. Or like, you know, not bad, but like sad and little upset. And then he came back like a couple days later or the next day, I don't know exactly. And then she's like, yeah, I'm sorry for my out outburst. I should have like composed myself, blah, blah, blah.
  
  

  And I was like, well, you know, your husband's missing. There's random people policemen showing up at your door. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: [01:32:00] Yeah. But that seemed normal to me. Uh, that's natural. But when you just said that. She did say she thought her husband was still alive. Maybe she actually knows he's still alive. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Maybe she hid him.
  
  

  Yeah. Like hid, hid with a d, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: hid him with a D. Yeah. Oh, I mean, maybe both. If she's involved, then maybe for whatever reason, she just knows that the aunt, so, I mean, I didn't mean, I meant it like in terms of she's in, well, you know, one, if she's one of the criminals, yeah. Maybe she just knows that they're not gonna kill him, but, you know, just sure.
  
  

  Keep him away. Like, you know, as, as Richard said, like he should be kind of, well, I guess that theory went through the roof, but, uh, through the window. But he should be kind of safe because he has the job to do. That's kind of difficult to replace. So it would make, but then again, I guess that richer thinks they tried to kill him.
  
  

  So if it wasn't for them, misunderstanding of prison. So I don't know. Yeah, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But the reaction that you just said that seemed kind of, that seemed kind of normal to me. Right. You're kind of [01:33:00] upset and then you are, seems she's also someone who wants, you know, maintain appearance and that kinda stuff. So 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah, I guess that's true.
  
  

  I dunno, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: you just wanna say that, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: I mean, I would expect you to just be a bit more upset about the whole situation, I dunno. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah. I dunno. No, but you're right. I mean there is not like the stuff, basically your summary is that I, I'm not sure if there's more we can, you know, we need a bit more characters.
  
  

  Hopefully next time we'll get the rest of the characters kind of. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I think the interesting thing is more that like in terms of discussing this is just that most of the stuff that's in there is fairly clear, right? Yeah, sure. It's like we know who Richa is and his alibi checked out and everything. I guess, as I said, we still have the question about.
  
  

  Oh, I guess we're trusting Finlay for now. Then again, he has kind of a bit of weird background. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: True. And now 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: he's, oh 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: he's financial problems. Yeah, I didn't think of that. You know, his divorce and everything. Maybe a little money on the side. Yeah, would [01:34:00] be helpful. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: And now he gave his, the Hubble's wife Charlie, and the kids are taken by a friend of, um, Finlay, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: A guy who makes reach look small.
  
  

  Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Hmm. Okay. That's good. I don't think either we're paranoid or we have trust issues or something's gonna happen here. So one of the, one of the three good characters is gonna turn out to, uh, be actually a bad guy. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Geez. I think, I think we're not done with the deaths yet. I think there's gonna be more people.
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I mean, that's gonna be more deaths. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: That's switchblade has to find somebody's neck. Um, yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Oh, oh, maybe, maybe, maybe actually, maybe that's their surprise. He's not gonna use a switchback to kill someone, but to cut something open or something like to cut a rope or something. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Oh yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Maybe that's the kind of like, we expect him to kill someone with it, but it's actually gonna be, it's gonna be used obviously, but maybe in a different context.
  
  

  Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Maybe it's like, you know, making a sandwich one day and he [01:35:00] needs like 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Or there's just a balloon and he pops it. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. To make a kid cry to like Exactly. Cause a diversion so he can like, kill people with his hands. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Exactly. Because that's way more fun. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. Yeah. He needs to feel the struggle. Um, yeah, I don't know.
  
  

  I think, yeah, I wonder, I wonder actually at the next section if it's gonna be similar to like this in case like in, in like in the sense that stuff happens, but we, we, you only know the, you know, the cliffhanger in the end when he tells you basically, right? Like, oh no, it turns out it was like, you know, llama escape from the zoo and he like trampled his brother.
  
  

  Um, you know, kind of coincidence, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I couldn't actually read the next chapter. That's exactly what's gonna happen. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Really? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Damn. See, see 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: a lot of llamas in the rest of the book. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. That's kind 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: of random. That's 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: I thought. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. No, I mean, I 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: could be a writer. That's what I realize right now. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, you just need to write then you're a writer.
  
  

  That's, you literally could be a writer. You just, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: you'll be 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: shit. Have to [01:36:00] write 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: you'll shit at it, but you're a writer. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That's the beautiful thing about writing. You can actually be it if you want to. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: That is true. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: As long as you don't Yeah. Wanna be a good writer or successful writer or popular writer.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Hey, none of those things matter. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Anyway. Cool. So what's gonna happen next? Okay, lemme just see. So we read until page 218. I mean, I guess it doesn't matter exactly which page we read you to guess what's gonna happen next, but, um, let's say 310 or 3 22. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: That's a, that's a 22. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. So we're gonna read, uh, chapter four, 15 to 21.
  
  

  So what's gonna happen next? Uh, I guess, what are the few questions? Okay. Maybe first question, do you think also just for structural reasons, next time we would've read, um, we would've read beyond the midway point of the book, because that's often Oh yeah, sure. When major turns happen. Right. Do you think it's gonna be revealed that one of the, that Finlay or Roco is, uh, not who we think they're, [01:37:00] I sorry, let's be more specific.
  
  

  Uh, one of the bad guys and a tricking richer? 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: No, I don't think so. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: I don't think so. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I think, yeah, I don't think either in the next one. Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. You do. You, so you don't, do you think any of them do? Any of those two is gonna be turn out bad? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Well, I think your, your kind of point earlier about there being 10 people and we've only, we only counted to six, uh, four so far kind of has to be one of them.
  
  

  Right. So I'd say yes. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Okay. Okay. Then I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say, but 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I'm not gonna say they're gonna be revealed next time. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: No, no, no. But just in end towards, yeah, yeah, yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Ultimately 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: the whole, whole story. Yeah. Okay. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. So you're gonna say no, just to be controversial or, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: well, also, because I think it's too much of a coincidence, right?
  
  

  They couldn't have, you know, why was Rosco so nice to, to him in the beginning? They didn't know all this stuff was gonna happen yet, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: but they, but Morrison already suspected, actually, it's not really clear whether Morrison suspected him actually as the merger or whether he him or him with his [01:38:00] brother.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Or even just 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: used 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: him. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, true. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah, that could be, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: okay, so here's the thing, right? 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Morrison was there, and Roscoe were there when Richard came in. So maybe Mor Morrison could have told Roscoe what to do. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: That is true. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. So it's still possible. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: That's still possible. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And yeah, so, I mean, I guess she, right.
  
  

  Okay, so let's put it this way. She right now doesn't have a motive. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Roscoe. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. There's no treatment. I mean, of course you can make one up, something like, you know, Morrison was putting pressure on her or whatever, if they needed one. Whatever. Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. Could be 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: any. You can always make something up, but Finlay actually potentially has a motive.
  
  

  I mean, to be fair, he said the job was well paying, so maybe he doesn't actually need the money. But then again, maybe it was well paying. For specific reasons. I don't know. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: That could be. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So I guess right now, so here's the thing. Yeah. I guess with, with Finlay, I have no suspicions, but he seems to have at least a bit of a motive.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: With Roscoe, I can't see a [01:39:00] motive, but uh, it all went a bit fast. Yeah. So we'll see. Cool. That's an important thing. If someone likes you, be suspicious of it. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Be su life lesson. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Don't trust anyone who likes you. That's another life lesson. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Cool. If, if, if a woman approaches you and says, Hey, how are you?
  
  

  Immediately be suspicious. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Kicker. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just Jack read to her headbutt. They don't, they never expect headbutt. Yeah, yeah, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: exactly. Um,
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: and then get rid of the body. Unless you're in Germany, then you have to keep your body or something. I dunno. I'm super confused now. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I dunno either. But, uh, the, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: where the skin and pretend you're them. That's what I would do. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, that's, but then someone's gonna do the same to you, so, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: God, fuck. Yeah.
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Anyway, sorry. So that's not gonna, so, okay. We agree though. That's not gonna be revealed this time. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But maybe he's gonna have a suspicion maybe. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, okay, so we have, okay. I have a [01:40:00] question for you. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Do you think we're gonna see Hubble in the next, um, part again, like in the next six chapters for, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I think it's gonna be revealed what's gonna happen with him, like whether he's alive or not.
  
  

  I think that's gonna be cleared because he's, yeah. He's not really what it's about anymore. Right? 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Well, he still has all the, like he's got a lot of information that Rich wants out of him, right. So, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. But I mean, it's not, he's, he's now not the end goal, right. He's not the end goal. Sure.
  
  

  Yeah. End goal is, now I'm actually tell you Sure. What the thing is. Well, I guess through reach its to, to avenge, not avenge his brother's death, but to clear it. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And whatever, whatever that means. So the Kleiner son or whatever it's, he's called. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So that's gonna be something. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I dunno.
  
  

  They're probably gonna intimidate Richa and he's going to punch through all of them. Something like, that's probably, I 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: hope so. I mean, the, the way the Kleiner's son is written or like the stepson, like you want him to get beat up, right? 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, exactly. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Like he's, [01:41:00] he's a bit of a dick, you know, he kind of like, he's not nice to his stepmom.
  
  

  He's not nice to Roscoe probably, you know, people don't like him. You know, that's the Exactly. You know? Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So, yeah, I think, I don't think he's gonna get beat up, but maybe not necessarily him specifically, but I feel they, they're gonna exert some pressure. Maybe him and a few friends on reach or something.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I think Charlie and the kids are just gonna be out of sight for the chapter for the next part. Um, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: It's, even if something happens, I think they're just gonna be gone for now. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: True. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Weird thing is though, I feel like there's lots of characters, but then again, right now I'm almost struggling to name more.
  
  

  There's of course the mayor to 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. Yeah. He could, but that's, that's all could, could, could haves. Right? Like they could play a role, but it's also fine if they don't kind of, right. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, also teal's not gonna do anything. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. He's a puppet. Right. It seems like he's a puppet. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: He's, and this also like, as you said, like he's too old to really like, do anything.
  
  

  Right, true. So he can, he can talk to Rich and like imply stuff and 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: try to 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: intimidate him, threaten him [01:42:00] or intimidate him. Yeah, exactly. But he's not going to actually do anything. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. Actually there's one interesting thing. 'cause he's like this steel guy, the mayor, he's like from a rich, um, plantation family, however they call it, right?
  
  

  Yeah. Something like that. Do you think, do you think that that's anything? Because if he's rich, why do he need to kliner kind of right. Are they, is that related or not? Is the kind of like completely separate rich family and why are they rich? Yeah. I can't remember. You know, what is their business? Oh, next question I have for you actually.
  
  

  What is, what is the criminal activity that's going on? We've kind of talked about this last time. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. What is the 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: conspiracy? What is the crime 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: conspiracy, whatever wanna call it. Yeah, yeah, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, yeah. Still have no idea. Um, right. Let's see. Uh, so what do we know? We know there's a substantial proportion of people in this small town involved.
  
  

  We know that the guy was a banker and maybe something, you know. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. That's something, yeah. That, that narrows 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: down something there. He hired and he was [01:43:00] also like, he's actually very wealthy, right. They have a Bentley and that kinda stuff. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Assuming he didn't like just, you know, rent it for the day, um, that he actually owns it then, um, yeah.
  
  

  Uh. What do we know? Uh, so he hired Rich's brother, which is interesting, right? Because that's, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: oh, that's another thing. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Towards the end. I get all the, the good ideas is Rich's brother said like, he's been in Margrave before, right? Because he said he also looked for the, the, the dad musician.
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Oh yeah, that guy. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Did he have something to do with it before? Did he go before already For Hubble, like a couple years ago. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But he helped, uh, like to help Hubble, you mean, or, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah, yeah. Like why did Hubble come up with like, his brother? Like, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah, that's, that's kind of what I was going at. Also. Like, why his brother?
  
  

  Yeah. No, that was the same thing. Kind of like, it might be that they just met randomly. 'cause, you know, it's a small place. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Could be, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: um, and richer. Like the brother Joe Richer was just, [01:44:00] you know, looking for that musician or whatever. Yeah. I don't know. But yeah. Yeah. I, I don't know. I mean that's, I'm kind of, yeah.
  
  

  Why did they hire the brother? Also, it's not really clear. Is it clear what he hired the brother for? Um, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: well, private investigator right. To kind of help him out of his trouble. Yeah. Yeah. What 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: does that mean? 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. Still, I mean, I guess to get him very 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: vague, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: I guess the idea was maybe for the brother to implicate the guys in the crime, like the other 10 guys.
  
  

  Right. And then maybe that could have been it that maybe like Morrison, you know, maybe the brother found out, already told Morrison the police chief, and then got killed because he knew too much. Right. That could be, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: oh, you think something like that? 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I dunno. I mean, that's the interesting thing.
  
  

  It's kind of, you know, in a way it feels like it's kind of obvious what's gonna happen next in terms of like how much actions there's gonna be and that there's gonna be cliffhangers and plot twists and that kind of stuff. Like, like, you know, like the rhythm of the book [01:45:00] seems fairly clear. Like every other chapter, there's like a big turnaround or cliffhanger.
  
  

  But I'm actually pretty blank on like what's actually gonna happen next. Like, I don't really have any specific expectations about what's gonna happen in the next six chapters. Yeah. Yeah. I is the funny thing I have, I mean, we still have the code word that the wife says, she doesn't know what it means.
  
  

  Again, you assume a guy like Reacher would, if she's in some way implicated, either she's a very good liar. Um, or you'd assume that someone with Reacher's training would kind of be able to figure out when she's lying. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, true. Yeah. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Some like if you, if you work in the police for 20 years, you can probably tell, I'd imagine, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: but oh, actually when they were at Charlie's house, um, all of a sudden Rosco started flirting with him that could have clouded his vision, right?
  
  

  Is 'cause she, like, she rubbed his leg and then he, all of a sudden he realized. Oh my God, she wants me 'cause she rubbed this neck. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, exactly. [01:46:00] Yeah, that's, yeah. I found that pretty funny too. Oh, feature. Oh 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: my God. No, 
  
  

  I 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: get the, get it. It's not even rubbing right? It's just the way she's sat down next to him or something.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I like, oh my God, the wink, the coffee, everything makes sense now. Yeah. We're gonna go back to her house and like do it. And 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: did, did He was right. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: And they did. Yeah. I have to admit, little lackluster in the writing. Like if you can write on how people are pinned on a wall, like you can write a bit more of like, and then we rolled around.
  
  

  You 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: wanted more explicit sex. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. I want more explicit sex. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, you can, you can write to, uh, leach out that, uh, his, his books aren't sufficiently pornographic for you. I'm sure he can add something to the next Oh yeah. He stopped writing. He can't, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: he 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: stopped. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Ah, see, just some time he knew it was 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: coming.
  
  

  Actually. Uh, there was one. There was one quote I seem to have not highlighted it, but I remember reading it about, you know, the, the read your books. Uh, one of it, I think it might have been about personal, that [01:47:00] that appeared before, you know, he was writing the one that 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: mm-hmm. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I'm reading about written.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So roundabout, anyway, I think there was something like a female reader said something like, what you mean there's, there's little sex or no sex in the reader books. Don't you know what's going through their mind or the women while they're reading it. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Oh, damn. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So apparently richer.
  
  

  Maybe. Maybe. Cool. That's the problem. You are, you're not letting your fantasies about Ja richer Go wild enough. That's 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: it. I'll try that next time. Yeah. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I mean, you've got like 300 pages more to, to do that. Just don't think too much of Tom Cruise. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, Tom Cruise like me puts me off a little bit, I guess.
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Anyway, I'm, I'm glad that we, again ended. We, I guess we're ending this thing now and we're again, reaching, I guess last time we talked about a pint full of semen. Um, and now we're talking about. You're being disappointed in the sex scene, so I'm glad we are [01:48:00] kind of, we're finding a rhythm 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: here. We're, we're reaching another climax, huh?
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Very good. Very good. Yeah. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, yeah. I hope people don't listen to this because, you know, it's getting weird and weird. I mean, I talk about wearing people's skin every time I end on like something. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I also feel like I might get into legal trouble just by having you on, because you're gonna say something.
  
  

  I know. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: I just want to say like a disclaimer. Everything expressed on this, um, channel is Ben's, it's Ben's opinions and not his guest. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I've written a script. K is just reading it off. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yes, yes, I am. I'm reading this 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: very well, I have to say very convincing. It sounds like you actually came up with the ideas.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, no, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, I mean, you also have to credit my writing for that, right? It's not that that is true. Easy to. To write a guy who's not a native, but speaks the language very well and, you know, really get the kind of rhythm of that going. It's, it's not that easy. Mm-hmm. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. No, I think we, we've, we've found a, a good rhythm here.
  
  

  I mean, yeah, you [01:49:00] can hear I'm stumbling now because I'm like, kind of spitballing. Um, exactly. Like I've reached end of my script. I'm, I'm, yeah, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah. No, you just improvise and as we established early improvisation isn't your strong point, so 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Isn't my strong 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: point. Um, I guess next time I'll write a bit more for you to say Yeah, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: yeah.
  
  

  Okay. And then maybe you can do some jokes on the side so I can throw those in there. I can try, you know, be 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll look up like a hundred best jokes or something. So you can, you can read some of those next time. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Exactly. Just throw 'em in randomly. Yeah. Okay. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay, good. So, as we said, uh, we're gonna read chapters 15 to 20, which ends on page 322.
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: I am actually excited. 'cause I mean, it works for me. I'm like, now I was a little bit annoyed, um, that I had to stop breathing, so, um, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: well, uh, we'll 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: see. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, we'll see. Okay then. I always feel like, uh, I feel like I should address the audience now if people are still listening. But then again, I feel, just feel sorry for people who spend their time listening to [01:50:00] me.
  
  

  Like, like, why would you listen to this? 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: It's like lunch, 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: like lunch, nothing things to do. Yeah, 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: I guess, I dunno, it's like some people just use it for background noise and then it can be kind of interesting. I dunno. 
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I guess it must be really confusing though if you have this as background noise and occasionally you, you hear the random, you just say random phrases like a pint of semen or 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
  
  

  Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I was disappointed by the sex scene or I wear their skin. Um, there must be some words where it's like, this is not good background noise. 
  
  

  Koen Frolichs: Yeah. Yeah. What kind of background noise? This. I shouldn't let my dog listen to this when I'm gone. Um, so he doesn't like eat a couch.