22. Book club: Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoevsky, Parts 5 & 6

In this episode, we discuss part 5 and then part 6 of Fyodor Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment (Oliver Ready's translation for Penguin Classics).

For this first book club series, I'm joined by Antonia. We did our Masters degree in Brain and Mind Sciences together at UCL. Since then, Antonia has gotten a PhD in psychology and now works in scientific publishing. 

Timestamps
0:00:05: Start part 5
0:49:45: Start part 6 

Podcast links

Ben's links

  • [This is an automated transcript with many errors]

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: [00:00:00] Okay, so this is now the fifth episode of Discussion of Punishment. I almost said Pride and prejudice there of Crime and Punishment. Um, yeah, as with the last one, I don't think we need to explain what this is. If anyone starts in episode five, you only have yourself to blame. Start with episode one. By the way, Antonio, today I think was my record for finishing reading the part latest two hour recording, because I literally finished reading this 15 minutes ago.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Well, you did finish it. That's all. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yes, I finished it and. Yeah, so, but this is unusual because like in the first three episodes, I think I finished reading it a few days before the recording, so I had a bit of like distance to it, which can be good, you know, because you can look at a bit more from the bird's eye perspective maybe, but then you also forget details, whereas right now I've got the details all in my head.

    I have. [00:01:00] So, yeah, we'll see. Uh, so anyway, as always, I think I, I wrote down a brief summary. Uh, so I'm gonna briefly remind everyone of what happened in the five chapters. Chapter one, for some reason is from Lucian's perspective, which something new. But Lucien gives Sonya 10 rubles and suggests to help her.

    Her family financially. Then this guy, Nikko, or however you pronounce his name and Lucian talked quite a lot and at the end then Lucien seems to plan something. At least that's what Nikko thinks, um, even though he at the time doesn't know what. Then chapter two, um, we're at the funeral banquet of Maal Lado to prove how noble Catina Ivanov is.

    She basically insults half of her guests and keeps saying how great her heritage is. Konik of didn't say anything in the entire chapter, even [00:02:00] though he sat there for about half of it. Chapter three, Lucin arrives at the banquet and accuses Sonia of stealing a hundred rubles from him. Then there Nikko and us Nikko accused Lucin of planting the money in Sonia's pocket so that.

    Konik off looks bad for associating with Sonia and therefore Lucin looks better for starting a fight with Konik cough and can maybe get back together with Konik off. Sister. Chapter four is now the big one. I think Nikko tells Sonya that he killed the two women and they discussed the, his motives for doing so.

    Uh, Nikko and Sonia then basically decide to be together, um, as you do, and then Nikko and chapter five. Then basically Caterina Ivar made is just going complete insane, uh, [00:03:00] and makes a huge scene in the streets, uh, where she basically forces her crying children to sing and dance some stuff so they can basically earn money.

    She falls, she just seems to be basically dying from her consumption. And then everyone congregates congregates in Sonya's room at which point turns up and says, oh, yeah, two things I'll nik off. Number one, I'll pay for the funeral and I'll make sure the children are fine. Oh, and by the way, I heard your confession, Tonia, that you killed them, and that's the end of five five.

    Once again, sorry, I, I already said this last time, but there's too many names in this book. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I keep having to look up who is who. It's so bad. Also, there's four. I just realized it's, it's too many. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I agree. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: what, what did you think about, about this part? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, I, [00:04:00] in a way, I feel like it's very similar to the previous parts in terms of how I liked in that.

    Uh, it always starts off with a lot of talking That's right. And people being really annoying. It's just people. Yeah. Again, like, uh, I'll get to that a bit more later, but again, most people here are not likable characters and they just talk such nonsense the entire time. I'm just so obnoxious. But then it usually ends the chat the parts really well by really advancing the plot and ending on the cliffhanger.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So, yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, it, it very, um, very much had the same feeling, especially the beginning, um, with Lu just talking and, um, with his flatmate and it just didn't progress. It was Paige of the page, um, and I was like, where is this leading and why is this relevant? Yeah. In hindsight, you know, why it's relevant.

    But yeah, it was, it was definitely a slow start and then it picked up quite a lot towards the end, and then obviously ends with the cliffhanger. So, [00:05:00] 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah. But also the whole, I mean. So, you know, I think we talked about it last time, all the time before something that basically no one is likable in this book.

    Almost no one. And I always felt like Katarina Ivanov now was a kind of medium case, um, where she, it's a tough life, right? If you basically have to, if you husband, as we say, from, from the way she was described in the first few parts, it seemed to me like she actually. Got really unlucky, basically kind of that her husband turned out to be such a drunk and then basically lost everything the family had and what she and he had been working for, and that she really got the bad end of the stick.

    But in this part, she's just so obnoxious the entire, I mean, sure she's upset because her husband's funeral and no, one of the people who she hoped who would turn up turned up and only the poor people came. But that whole thing's kind of part of the problem. She's just such an arrogant Yeah. She's just so, like I'm above everyone here.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. Although, I did have the [00:06:00] impression earlier on in the previous path that she was not a very kind and caring cha character because in the end of the day, I think it was her who made Sonya leave to home because she didn't want Sonya to be in the family home anymore. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. But I don't know, somehow I, yeah, this was the first part where I really thought like, oh god.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I mean. The whole, I mean, this is a general thing that I realized there's quite a lot of talk about some people being superior to others in this part. Um, and I guess it's kind of already there in the previous ones, but, or maybe in general in this book. So there's this whole, you know, this whole discussion that, um, Nikko and Perfectly Pet Petrovich had about the, the article that ov Correct, right.

    That some people should be allowed to do certain things or that kind of thing. Yeah. That some people are bar are above others. And there's here also this whole thing where in this part, um, when talking to [00:07:00]Sonya, he talks about how he wanted to test whether he was like a real human or just a, what's the term they used?

    Not a roach, but a leach. No. Some sort of insect or something. And then also it occurred to me that. The whole thing about Kaar is that she feels like she's a your, she always said like, oh, I'm from a noble family. I'm better than these people. This shouldn't happen to me. I'm not poor. And all that kind of stuff.

    And yeah. It only occurred to me like when these two parts were kind of back to back, that there's actually quite a bit of discussion here. Well, not necessarily discussion, but a lot of the characters seem to think that they're kind of above everyone else. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, that's true. And it's a bit of a Yeah. Theme of the book, isn't it?

    The, the, the question what? Whether some people are allowed to do certain actions, whether it's justified to do certain things when you're a certain person. So I can, I can see that. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And it seems that Toki does not think [00:08:00] that that's the case because the people who make those arguments seem to make some pretty poor decisions.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: That's true. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, for example, the whole thing with whenever, right? He seems to be like one of the most, one of the kindest characters in the books. You never hear him go, you know, oh, I'm such a great person or whatever. Like, he just seems to try and help. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: True. Um, so what did you think of the confession scene or chapter?

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, let me just check my notes there, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: because pre previously we've been discussing his motives or also the, I think last time we discussed maybe the time before, whether he, we asked whether he was, felt sorry for it, whether, what, what his motives were, whether he regrets the action, et cetera. And I think there's some definitely, yeah, it's the first time actually we talk, hear him talk about it and his, his [00:09:00] reasoning.

    A rational behind killing. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Well, that's the question there, right? I mean, I, I know what you're getting at, like the whole thing. There's this passage that also written out, um, where he says he did it all for himself or something like that, right? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Like I didn't kill for my mother, I didn't kill for my sister or anything.

    I just killed. Um, yeah, and I mean, it is, the difficult part here to me is that this is something he's now saying a few days after the fact, whereas be, I mean, I think basically he, he's trying to come up with why he did it and he's trying to figure out why he did it. And this is one interpretation and I know whether he believes it or 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: That's interesting because I didn't have the, the same impression.

    For me it was very much linking back to his, the paper he's written or the article he's written about that some extraordinary people are allowed to. To do certain deeds or [00:10:00] commit certain CRI crimes in, in order to do something. And, um, the majority of the people, common people who are not extraordinary and not allowed to, to do these things, and they have to abide by the law.

    And for me, this confession sounds like that he was indeed testing his assumption about himself, that he was one of these extra ordinary people. And this is why he kind of compared himself to Napoleon or wanted to act in line with, with Napoleon, um, and just grab what he wants to, to reach a greater goal, which his idea is that he needs money to establish himself and then he will become a, a great lawyer of some sort and go through university, et cetera.

    So he wants, he thinks this is. The, the ultimate aim, which is worth killing for. [00:11:00] But the whole action to me seems like he wanted to test this or wanted to show that this is the case. Yeah. But after killing her, he realizes that he's not an extra ordinary person and he's not Napoleon, which is why he Yeah.

    Fed into despair after the, after the murder. So I 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: kind of agree. And also not, so, I mean, yes, he says that and he links it to those things. And from the way what he tells Sonya, it seems very much like that that's the case and it kind of fits to what he also, you know, the discussion Yeah. That he had with Boro.

    So that all makes sense. But again, he never thought about these things before he was doing the action. You know, we saw his, his mark, we, we saw his actions and what he was thinking before he was doing it, and he never once thought about this. So I feel like if this really had been his motives, then why didn't we hear about this before?

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: We don't really like, there's only so much we hear about his thoughts before the mad [00:12:00] murder. And then it might be that, you know, I think this whole idea of thinking or thought process started much earlier than the beginning of the book, right? We didn't really know about this article until part three or four.

    I don't know. So it might be true maybe when the moment when a book starts is already way into this thought process and maybe already at a stage where he's not very clear. But the way he describes it also, he just, he talks about these days or weeks where he was just lying in his, he had stopped studying but didn't really intend to work, but he was just lying in his flat or his room thinking, so we don't know anything about this period.

    And it could be that this is why he thought all this through. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: you came up with this. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So, I mean, I think the, the, the, the slight problem I have with [00:13:00] that is not that it couldn't be the case or that we know that it's not the case or whatever. I mean, like we, you know, I think as we discussed in part one, it's very, or part one or part two, we really didn't know his motives, right?

    It's, it's very, I think in part one, it's not super clearly defined why he does or whatnot. And I understand that, you know, as that the doky structure of the book, that it kind of starts with a lot of action, right? He doesn't start with ov lying in his bed for months. It starts with the actual, with the crime more or less.

    And so I stand like from that, from a dramatic perspective, it makes sense to start with the crime and not like have all this build up to it, right? Like that, that makes complete sense to me and I think it's a good dramatic choice, but I think. And I'm not saying like, obviously he did think about these things before and he did, um, write that article and I, I guess my point is more like he won, he had those [00:14:00] thoughts before, but then when he actually committed the action, he seemed largely devoid of it.

    He seemed to be, it seemed to me he was more focused on the money before he did it. Like, if I remember correctly, in part one, I think it was more like he was just in part one, I got the impression he was just poor and wanted money. Now he in this, in part five, now he actively disagrees with that and says like, it wasn't for the money.

    Like I haven't even taken any of the money. I haven't done this or that, but I just don't buy it really, to be honest. I feel like he, he's had these thoughts and for some reason he killed her, but it's just very unclear why he did what he did. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. So do you think that he's lying to Sonya or is he himself.

    Trying to make sense of his actions in hindsight in a way, and kind of like, um, explaining his own actions. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I think it's more hindsight. I don't think he's like, I think he's just, I mean, for most of the book, [00:15:00] he's just completely confused about everything. He's, you know, he can't string two clear thoughts together.

    I think he's just very desperate. And I mean also, like, as you said, like he spent like months in his bed just lying around. Like, you're not thinking when you're lying in your bed for months, you're just ruminating. And like, if you want to like, really figure something out, don't line your bed for several months and just not do anything all day.

    That's not how you gain clarity over something. I've tried. It doesn't work. You know, it's, he isn't thinking about it. Like he's, I think if he really had been the person who wanted to test this theory, the book would've been written very differently. I would've made him like, at least I like it seems to me, if you really want to test this thing you, because that would've been an interesting book too.

    You could have said something like, you have this very clear minded guy who has this theory and test it and then goes through his psychological term and realize it doesn't work. And that can be a very interesting book [00:16:00] in his way too. But it seems to me more he was just in term of the entire time, committed a murder during this and is now going like, oh, maybe it's, I was testing this theory, but I dunno.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. He just doesn't seem clear enough in his mind for me to be, for that, to be the, the main reason. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: But maybe could have just been some set, I wonder whether you need to be clear to have sense of grandeur because he could have just been like very manic in a sense that he felt like he was just.

    Extraordinary Napoleon like person and 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, and I mean that actually makes sense in terms of what I said earlier with Ka ivanov in that both her and I mean she really reverts to this whole, I'm superior to everyone [00:17:00]because my dad was whatever. When she's most desperate, you know, when she's really desperate, that's when she starts having this sense of grandiosity about herself.

    And it seems to me maybe that for us going golf, it was the same thing that he was getting really desperate and then came up with this whole thing, whoa, maybe I'm better than everyone else. Anyway. You see what I mean? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I dunno whether that's the case, but, but again, he, yeah, I mean, the thing that really, like, I don't think this, I think the first time we heard of this.

    Oh, sorry, in part one. So I mean, in part one, the, if I remember correctly, the question of whether it's okay to murder someone can for the greater good, let's say, is already addressed. Because we, Nikko member remembers overhearing a conversation between that, those two people in the pub, right? Where the one guy says like, well, this old lady is really mean.

    She has all [00:18:00] this money. She doesn't use it. She abuses her sister. All that kind of stuff, right? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So we already had a glimpse into that this is a theme, or that these are, might be some motives that go through us konik cough's head, but we never had this whole thing about whether he's superior or not.

    In part one. Like, yeah, I feel like I should have been mentioned in part one if that was really part of his thinking at the time. I think at the time he just wanted, I don't know, resentful, angry at being poor or whatever. I don't know. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: But then that brings back to the question, why didn't he work? You know, if he was only desperate because there's never really a clear reason for why he didn't look for some sort of employment.

    So, '

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: cause he thinks it's below him or, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah, because the prob like the problem of poverty might have been solved differently. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, I mean, I mean, here's the thing I, I'm, to me, it's just completely unclear [00:19:00] why he killed them. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Well, I guess maybe it could also be a combination of both. Right. So he was in a desperate situation.

    He needed the money, but also he felt like he deserved, he was superior, he deserved better life. He had some sort of vision, what he wanted to do, and he felt like he could be a Napoleon and then did it. So, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah, I mean maybe that's, yeah. Maybe the frustration that he felt came from the fact that he thought this shouldn't happen to me.

    Like I'm not the person who should be in this situation, who would ha, who has to like teach to gain his money or whatever. I don't know. I'm not saying it's not part of the, you know, I mean like every decision, especially if about, if it's about a big topic, it's very complex and involves lots of moving parts.

    But I think at one point is more that I think he makes it a bit too easy for himself. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Although maybe, yeah, I dunno. Yeah. I think now I'm getting as confused as he is, [00:20:00] so I'm probably gonna go kill some old ladies. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Do you also, when reading this part about his confession found very strange that he talked about the murders.

    If you had only murdered the porn broker and not these. Uh, ve the sister. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Wait, so again, you said it sounds like he only killed the porn broker. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, he, he talked about, about the murders, if he'd only killed one, one person. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But he does start off, I dunno, I, in the beginning I had the opposite that I thought he only talked about killing Liza Vita because he said like, because, you know, the whole confession kind of started off by him saying like, oh yeah, by the way, you know, you wanna know who killed your friend, basically.

    Right? So 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I think it just shifts. But then he's, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: it starts off by that and then 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, but then shift. So then in the end he's like, when he gets to the ni gritty, or at least when he gets to the confession, he talks about it [00:21:00] sounds like he, because in a way that's the only thing he'd really thought through.

    Right? The second murder was just Yep. A bad, you know, coincidence in a way. Um, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: a big, whoops. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: And, and, and, and then, yeah, exactly. And then the, but the other thing is the one that he, um, the murder of the porn broker is the one he had planned and or has he planned it? Yeah, we don't, don't really know, but, well, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: he did plan it, but not 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: well, yeah.

    To, to, to some extent. So I found that very peculiar, why he starts off by discussing or commit, admitting that he had murdered the sister, but then the confession is actually not about the murder of the sister. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But that makes sense though, right? I mean, basically he says like he wants to, he, he says that he killed the sister and then said, but I didn't mean to, I was doing this other thing.

    And then, you know, I mean, that kind of makes sense, right? He says like, I didn't mean to do it. Well, he didn't really say she happened to be there [00:22:00] when I was killing the other person. Um, he doesn't explicitly link it quite that much, but I mean, that makes sense to me. Right. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, I think I was just hoping for some sense of, or some, some apology or some some sense of, um, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I tell you, you dunno what's 

    gonna 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: thewell.

    No, but this actually relates to something that I want to, that I wrote down, which is. Um, right. Gimme a second. I wrote down the page number. Geez. It's a long confession. Yeah. So he never actually says that he killed in the beginning. Right. He's just like, do you wanna make a guess who killed your friend?

    She's like, dude, what are you doing? And then, uh, he basically says like, well, take a good look. Right? And then she realizes that she, she, she realizes then like, oh God, that's what the guy did. She looks at him again to be sure about what's happening. And so she just [00:23:00] realized that he murdered her friend.

    Right? And then the first thing he says after that is, enough, Sonya, enough. Don't torment me. It's always about him. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: It 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: is. This is page 3, 4, 9, 4. It's al like, even like, he, like, he, he just confessed to killing someone's friend, and then he immediately makes it about how he's suffering. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. I, I realized it as well.

    Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: He's, and, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: and 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: he, yeah. He doesn't feel any remorse. Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: And I think also he is very, he's not open at all. Right. So he wants to decide how much he gives away and how much to what extent things are discussed and talked about. And then as soon as she wants to kind of like, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: what do you mean by that? Um, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: so where's the part that you did you refer to?

    I read 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: page 494.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: So yeah, what I meant by this is like, he says, enough, only [00:24:00] enough done toman me. So he, Kendrick cuts her off. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Well, she, I don't think he actually says anything. Right? Doesn't she just look at him and she just looks at him and goes like, oh fuck, he actually did. And then, yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Well, she just says, Lord.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. But I guess what I mean is said he want. He, um, he wants to be in control of where the conversation or this like interaction is going, I guess. And he, on one hand wants to be honest with her and tell her what he's done, but on the other hand, he also doesn't want her to punish him or dis or torment him.

    Yeah. I don't know where I'm going, going with this. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. Yeah, I mean, I think like the, uh, most of that conversation and most of the him, I mean, he already tried to tell her in the last part. Right. And I think both of those conversations, conversations [00:25:00] revolve mainly around him trying to tell her and not being able to.

    Mm-hmm. I think he's just, he's, he, I mean he obviously wants to tell her, or maybe just anyone, uh, but he definitely wants to tell her in this instance, and I, I. It's, it's difficult to con confess to a murder, to a double homicide. Mm. Um, so I think he basically just never quite has the guts to do it. So that's kind of how I read most of the scene is him just basically he wants to do something that's really difficult to do and just can't really, so he does it in the most awkward way or roundabout way possible.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. How do you feel about how the scene ends? Because she basically wants him to, you know, she's obviously very religious and she wants him to confess and receive the punishment he, he deserves and therefore, you know, deal with his sin. [00:26:00] 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, so there's two things. The first thing is, the two things I was thinking of when I heard this, the first was when I heard, when I read this, um, the first is that Sonya is, you know, the most.

    Religious character in the book. I'm probably the, she's the only one who's like obviously openly religious frequently. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I think so. Right. And confessing to her, right. She's basically taking the, the role of a priest who he's mm-hmm. He's not confessing to her in anonymity. Right. In that sense that a priest would not allow to be, to tell anyone.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But I think that's basically, you know, that's what he wants to do. Right. He wants to talk about it, he wants to get it off his mind, and he wants to tell someone about what he did. And I think that's kind of the role she's taking there, almost as someone who he feels he can confide in. Mm-hmm. He kind of is confessing his sins.

    Right. That's kind of what he is doing, but he's doing it in a way that I think he hopes is he's [00:27:00] gonna get away with it and not, um, I, the whole assumption is that she's not gonna tell the police Right. I think or not, I don't know because let's, Nikko did a lot of stuff that suggests he kind of wants to get caught.

    So that's the first thing. Uh, the second thing is that, I mean, this isn't really like a full point, but like one thing I noticed that, so we talked about with, you know, I think mentioned it in this episode already twice, that Sonya is probably one of the most likable characters in the book. Uh, or Ian. He seems to be the only two people who are kind of nice to people and not insane and annoying.

    Um, and she's also the most religious character. And it seems to me, so I heard, I once saw this meme. It was something like, um, Dostoevsky drawing in like young. Like atheistic people or something with a lot of this, like nihilistic talk and then bashing them over the head with, um, Catholic doctrine or [00:28:00] whatever.

    Um, and it seems to me like it's maybe not a coincidence That's the most likable character almost in the book, is the most religious. And I wonder whether this is almost the way Doky thinks people should behave. Um, yeah, not sure. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. I mean, this is, we don't really know because she, she happens, she's the most likable, the most selfless and the most religious.

    However, I don't think this should be a suggestion that if every, everybody just blindly follows religion. Everything would be great. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I mean, the thing is, I don't, this is not a proper point I'm making, I guess what I'm saying. I just saw this meme once and I haven't read enough of Dr. Mm-hmm. And this kind of made me think, it just made me think of it that maybe also this is gonna come back a bit.

    Um, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah, I mean, I [00:29:00] think she's definitely not the smartest person. She's not critical in a sense. I think she's, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, isn't she basically just a helpless kin? They both kind of help quite a bit, but kin actually like, actively does stuff where she seems to just be, uh, I mean, she's basically a kid, right, who's been forced into prostitution.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: She's very kind, but not very capable maybe. Yeah. That's way of putting it. Um, you just feel like, you just feel sorry for her, basically. Right. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. And I think like in the end. Or this chapter when she wants to wear him to wear her cro cross, does she? Yeah. She's giving to him, which I think is just a symbol of him.

    Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Bearing his cross. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. And, um, committing his sins and yeah, bearing gr the cross and dealing with the aftermath in a way that's ethical or moral. But then he says, give it to me. But [00:30:00] he, he only says, give it to me because he doesn't want to upset her. And then he says, I'll put it on later. So we don't, we don't really believe him.

    So he, he pretends, okay, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna do all the right things, but not right now. I'm gonna do it later. And she believes him, um, she says, yes, yes. Better, better. She echoed enthusiastically. So I think this is just, shows quite nicely actually that she's. Not critical and, and smart at all, because all the other characters would've been, you know, like, no, you wear it now.

    I know you're not gonna wear it later. Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. It's, it is probably the, that those like two sentences are almost the best description of Nikko and of Sonya. Her just being like naively believing in pe in people doing the right thing and him just not just like, not taking responsibility for his actions or, [00:31:00] yeah, maybe he will, who knows?

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But yeah, I doubt it. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Well, yeah, maybe he will be forced to do so. 'cause as we know now, there's not only Sonya, but also second person who's heard the confession. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I have to admit, that part really annoys me because it's just, uh, like in terms of just storytelling, maybe it's what all happened differently in part six, but now.

    What's kind of annoying that Sw Geoff is kind of, I mean, he's a bit of a shit stir in that he like offers money to Nikko sisters, not marry Lucian. But the other function he seems to have is just to, by coincidence, living next to it and overhearing this thing and then being able to, I dunno, blackmail, konik off or something.

    What I would find much more interesting is, and I'm kind of surprised that this happened, hasn't happened yet at all. But that there seems to be no moral dilemma in [00:32:00] Sonia whether she should tell the police about this. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That for me would be interesting if, if someone else was again, forced to go through something bad because of Scon cop's actions.

    So last time I already mentioned that I kind of was assuming the entire time someone was going to falsely be accused of committing the crime and would have to suffer because of Hask KO's actions. Mm-hmm. Or rather, sorry, slightly differently. I mean, he killed people they already suffered through his actions, but someone basically having to bear the burden of his sins, if you want, put it religiously.

    Mm-hmm. As that young guy, uhm Ola, whatever his name was. God, I'm getting so good at rowing names. Mm-hmm. Uh, happened at the, at the end of the last part. And I thought like, okay, now like with Sonya knowing about this, it would be interesting to see whether she is going to have some sort of moral conflict, whether she.

    Help someone whom she clearly likes and who seems to like her, even though he [00:33:00] basically is mean to her always, and her having to make the decision whether she should tell the police or not. But now it seems to go more towards someone having to hear it and then he's gonna tell the police or something like that.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Although I don't think that would've been, because I think there are two things, two systems of law in a sense. One of them is the government, so legal justice system and the other one is the Bible. And I think she's less concerned about, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: right, yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Abiding to the law and the justice system. Then she is to abiding to God's law law.

    So in that sense, she wants to convince him to, you know, bear cross. Commit to sins, et cetera, but they're not 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: commit to sins, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: uh, not commit. Admit, [00:34:00] 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: don't, don't encourage him. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: No. Yeah. Admits that he, that he matter, that the women, et cetera, and 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yep. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: You know, um, that would be the moral thing to do. And for her, it's important to convince him of the right actions.

    But I don't think she's so concerned about em actually, you know, going to the police. The police just happens to, I mean, she never even thought about it, right? Pardon? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: She never thought about it. There's no discussion in the entire part of her going like, oh yeah, maybe I should tell. Like, she doesn't even think, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah, we don't know.

    But I think that the way I read her character, I don't, I wasn't surprised or there was no moral dilemma because it doesn't seem to be that some. Biggest concern. I think for me, it seems like her biggest concern is whether he's gonna end up in heaven or not, because he, which 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: seems unlikely, let's be honest.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. But, but I think, uh, but bigger [00:35:00] concern is his. Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. No, okay. That's, that is a fair point. I think so, yeah, you're right. In terms of the character. Yeah. She cares more about God than a judge. But I th I think I also meant it more in terms of just storytelling from Dostoevsky's perspective. There were a few things in this part, and there's another one I'll get to later that kind of annoyed me, where I thought like, ah, dude, can't you just write this like a little bit better?

    Like, it wouldn't be like, you'd just have to take out a few bad parts. And so there's this whole thing in, in storytelling, uh, God, what's this called now? The deals, uh, is a concept where basically. That I think is just usually very poor storytelling. Basically, you have a story that goes towards a really bad end, and then God just comes in and solves it, right?

    Mm-hmm. Or like someone who has nothing to do with the story comes in, like the white knight comes, kills all the bad people and then everything's good. It's like, like you, you have this, like this story and this [00:36:00]drama within the story, and then just something from outside comes and just completely changes everything, right?

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And that's just a istic device that you can use. And I think it's almost always a bad idea. Um, it's always just kind of lame. Maybe the only exception being Monty Python when, uh, they ran out of money to shoot the rest of the film. So they just pretend, like just made one scene where the police comes into the Middle Ages, shoots everyone or something.

    I can't remember exactly. Um, anyway, it's, it's, I think it's usually when it happens, it's always really disappointing because you kind of wanna see how the story ends, but then it ends with. Basically God just solving the problem. And here it's kind of the opposite almost in a way to me that it's not that God, like the white knight comes in and saves everything, but you have this like dramatic story and then this random guy turns up who just has nothing to do with the story and just happens to live in the room next door and now has this information.

    I don't know, it just seems like, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah. Yeah. [00:37:00] I can see your point, but I think it's going to get a bit more complex because we still don't know what his motives were to come to St. Peter's book in the first place. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, that is this. Yeah, I was about to say that there's the slight, the thing that makes it a bit better is the fact that he is involved in their hometown story, um mm-hmm.

    Of. Nope, don't remember what the, his wife was called. Um, who has died. Like, you know, there, there is a bit more to it. It's, it's not a complete, uh, God solve the problem, solves the problem. But it is, it just seems right now, it just seems a bit unnecessary to be honest. Yeah. I think like if this is like a psychological drama, I'm not sure you'd need that person because, I dunno, I mean, like the, I said it before, I think in the last parts that to me, Oscar Nikko never seemed concerned about anything that he did.

    He seemed more concerned about whether he get caught. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, and that as soon as basically it [00:38:00] turned out there wasn't any real evidence, he calmed down a lot and. He is also been much more coherent in this part. Again, especially like when he accused Lucian of, uh, you know, why he would do this to Sonia and put the money in.

    I thing like he was, again, he, he spoke very eloquently again and all of this, his, him speaking like a proper person, all of this happened after he found out there's no real evidence against him. So in a way you might say that without someone like Fit Geoff who could apply a bit of pressure, Lakoff's just not gonna do anything.

    He's just gonna get go free. So, I dunno. Um, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: but we don't even know whether he's going to apply any pressure because right during the very last thing he says is, and you'll see what an accommodating fellow am, you'll see that I'm not so very hard to get along with Dot Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But that's basically him saying he's gonna.

    I mean, come on Antonio. I [00:39:00] think you're being a bit too nice here. If a guy comes in and says, oh yeah, I heard about your murder. I'm sure we'll get along fine. That's basically him saying, I've got you, you have to do whatever I tell you to do. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. But he don't know exactly what he is gonna do and what, uh, because he seems to me he has some 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Ooh, do you 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: think he big emotive, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: he denied it, but you think maybe he wants to marry Nikkos sister?

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, that's a possibility. But there's something, I don't think, uh, he, the murder is his biggest concern, but he was just lucky because in reality, there's something else that he wants to achieve would do, and now he's got a bit of leverage. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I mean, he, see, I mean, he wasn't he kind of borderline accused of killing his wife?

    I can't remember exactly. Yeah. So I, I also don't think he, I mean, let's put it this way, if I overhear, not me specifically, but if one overhears a murder. And the, oh, sorry. The confession [00:40:00] of a murder and then doesn't go to the police, but starts talking to the person who confessed about it. You can be pretty sure that that person is kind of fine with illegal stuff.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I don't, yeah, he's, he's going to use this to his own advantage and I guess we'll see what that exactly is gonna be, but 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Did you have any other points you wanted to discuss? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, lemme see. I have an entire page worth of comments. Um, oh yeah. So this is something that really surprised me actually, sorry.

    I need to very briefly do a proper online study, uh, of research right now. Give me a second. Wait, wait. Was Crime and Punishment published 18? 1866? Yeah. 66. So this is what really surprises me. In part one, they talk about Darwin. So this book was published in 1866 and my. Very quick. Internet research just revealed that Darwin's Origin of Species [00:41:00] was published in 1859.

    So I was just really surprised that a book by an English guy about biology was so famous seven years later that a Russian novelist assumed that regular people in St. Petersburg would be talking about this. I dunno, this is just something I went like, huh, I didn't expect this to. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. But it wasn't that expect 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: that first.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Very influential in the sense that like, he very much changed how people thought about evolution. Yeah. I thought, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I don't know. It was controversial when it came out and, and it kind of almost makes sense that it's controversial because of the whole religious thing. Right? And this all comes in this part of discussion where Lucian and Nikko, or whatever his name is, mm-hmm.

    Talk about all these things about politics and whatever. So it kind of makes sense that maybe they would know about more than others. It's just, I don't know, I just. Like it makes sense that now something would spread very fast, but I just didn't assume that in the 1860s of seventies. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. But he was [00:42:00] an educated, do Doki was educated and seems like he was very much interested in new, new schools of thoughts, et cetera.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, again, I'm not, it's, I'm not even that surprised that a KY fan out of it. I'm just surprised that like, he would put it in a book that PE like regular people would read and they're like, oh yeah, Darwin, like I know 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That it was already common knowledge almost, you know, like as if, like, if you now write about something that happened seven years ago, which is 2014, you know, obviously stuff would go into common knowledge, but 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: mm-hmm.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, I dunno. That was just one thing that really surprised me there. Um. Oh yeah. So I just have like random points now. Uh, this is something I actually meant to say in one of the earlier parts already. Um, I dunno, Antonio, uh, whether you had this realization too, but so we're recco we're recording this during one of various COVID lockdowns and [00:43:00] it's just funny to me how comfortable people are sitting next to someone who's basically dying from like a lung infection or whatever.

    Like the entire book is just, people are dying from like terrible things. It happens a few times. Yeah. And everyone just sits next to them and goes like, as if, like this, as if, I mean, they know about infections and stuff. Right. It's just, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I think, I think, well, I, I think two things. We are now hyper aware of these things and 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: exactly.

    Somebody describing a cough in a book, you know, as like alarm. Well, she was coughing blood. Yeah. It's, it, it's what we, we are now super sensitive to a topic, but in also I feel that. Back then, people didn't know as much about transmission as we do now For sure. And, um, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: no, I mean, like, even now, I mean this is more common about like how the, not even know about the book, but more like how the pandemic changes you reading a classic 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: book.

    Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Because you know, like if someone was like coughing or sneezing a few times in your [00:44:00] office, you wouldn't think much of it. A year ago, right? Or Well, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah, but now it's like, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: god dammit, it's been a year in the pandemic more than a year ago. Um, but two years ago. But like now, it's just if someone's coughing blood in my office, I'd say, Hey, do you wanna maybe go see a doctor?

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Isolate? Yeah. Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But the other th thing is that this is something, I think it's, it's when the marble Lado guy dies. This is my favorite part, I think, in the entire book, and I just never got around to mentioning it. But now that we're talking about medicine, I can mention mention it, which is, so he's, he was hit by this or over trampled over by horses and a cart, right?

    And he has like all these wounds all over his body and he's bleeding. And Nikko like made all this effort to say like, yeah, I'll pay for the doctor, let's let the doctor come in. And then the doctor comes in and says, oh no, this isn't looking good. I could let some blood, but I don't think it's gonna work.

    It's like, yeah, someone is already bleeding really strongly. Don't like let blood maybe. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And I loved how he, he just always said it like, [00:45:00] it's an option we have, but I don't think it's going to help. He's already like, yeah, don't, he's already lost like a pint of blood. Don't take more. You're right outta.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Oh, I love reading old things and realizing how stupid people are and then realizing that the same applies to us and people look back to what we do. Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: That is very much, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: most of the stuff we do is dumb even to contemporaries, but, um. Yeah. Or 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: maybe, maybe that's a good point to finish. We're all done in some sense.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That's a very good point. Yes. Let's always remember that. Because unlike Nikko and Ka ivanov, we don't think we're inherently superior to anyone else 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: to get 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: most of, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: to finish on. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. But I, I think Anthony, we do have to continue our tradition of, uh, spending one or two minutes thinking about what's gonna happen next.

    Um, now we're the 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: pen. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. So we, there's an [00:46:00] epilogue right after that, but we are now reaching the last part. Uh, so maybe let's start with the question we've had every single time. Now, is he gonna get arrested? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I think, I think you'll come out. Um, either by somebody telling the police or him just getting to a point where he hands himself to the police.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. So you think he is, I mean, coming out, not in terms of like, I mean, you already confessed it to two people, right? In a way it is already out. Yeah. But in terms of like, you mean the police is going to know? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, it is called Crime and Punishment. Um, so it's been surprising little punishment so far.

    But you think Yeah, but just it's gonna, the police is gonna know, not they're going to arrest incarcerate. I dunno what they do back then to murder us. Probably kill him. I imagine the death penalty is still a thing in 1870s Russia. Sure. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Maybe that happens in the epilogue. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Nice. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: [00:47:00] No, but he, I think that, uh, what he thinks gonna happen is that he's gonna go to Siberia, to the labor camps.

    Now he mentioned this in his confession. Confession. I, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: is it about that? I always wondered, I mean, well, they said I'll go to Siberia. But wasn't that just a metaphor? Like I'll go, I'll, I'll go with you wherever. Uh, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I thought it was going to Siberia to labor camps. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Oh really? Okay. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Uh, but I might be wrong.

    We'll see. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. Yeah. So then, okay. There's a few more plot lines, uh, that we can talk about for 10 seconds each. Maybe not that many actually, but, so I. What do you think he's gonna do? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Um, I really don't understand his motive. I, the only one I could think of would be something like, he wants to marry Nikko sister or something along the lines.

    But other than that, I don't really see what [00:48:00] Yeah. What his goal is. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, I think so. That, that would be my, my very risky guess now is that is gonna blackmail Oscar after I'm not say, sure what Oscar gonna cost supposed to do, but put a good word for him, I guess, or something. Uh, Lucy, is he gonna come back or is that the last we've seen of him?

    Mm, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: it's probably gonna come back on the side, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: be a bit 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: annoying, but I don't think he is major. I think this is kind of like his prime. Scene. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Is there any other character? Let's see. Well, the police detective, he's ob Perri. Petrovich. I've, I've been missing him. Um, and his intentional obnoxiousness. So let's see.

    Just, I'm just going through characters now where there's anyone who we've, half of them have died so far. Kata. They're all dead. Mm-hmm. Um, Nastasia has disappeared too. The, the maid who works for 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. But I don't think that she's gonna reappear in any Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: She was actually a kind of likable character.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: [00:49:00] Um, mom, a lot of is dead to Jesus. So many people have died. Ian, do you think he's gonna fulfill his dream of marry, marrying Nikkos sister? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, potentially. I think that could happen, but maybe that's, we're not gonna maybe see a marriage, but maybe it's like that's a bit of like 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: gonna make a move 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: maybe.

    Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Then last, uh, yeah, next, next week's gonna be the last. And then I guess we're gonna have after that still with the epilogue or maybe general discussion about everything, but 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: good.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: This is the sixth episode now of our discussion of Crime Punishment by Sevki discussing part six. So as [00:50:00] usual, here's a brief summary of what happened in each chapter. Chapter one, Nikko is in his flat and decides to talk to his fi galot to settle. The situation is asking himself what on earth is going on with Nikko?

    As Nikko is about to leave to see sw ov pore petrovich enters Nikkos room Chapter two, pore Petrovich reveals he knows everything about the murder. He accuses Nikko of being the murder and asks him to confess Nikko doesn't. And Po Petrovich leaves chapter three As Knik goes to see ov, the conversation is all over the place, but OV gets konik.

    I have no idea what that's supposed to say. Ah, no. Okay, so this is actually a slightly tricky problem. So in this book or in this part, they call Nik, [00:51:00] and I dunno whether that's. A normal thing or not, do you know? Because I noticed that OV kept calling him R Roman and then Ov also called him R Roman and I can't remember seeing that before.

    Do you remember whether that happened before? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I think so, no. '

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: cause otherwise it's Romano. Right. But they kind of shortened it and I dunno whether that was intentional or not. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: To be honest. I, I stopped paying close attention to the names. I just try to, to, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I actually 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: know the names now. Identify characters.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Anyway, so the, after the, so the conversation between RAs, Nikko, and ov, the conversation ends with Sw Galo starting to talk about Oscar Nikkos sister. I think so. That's a weird note I made. Anyway, chapter four, Nikko all about his life with Mother Petrona and his seducing of usually helpless women.

    He also talks [00:52:00] about his new fiance, a 16-year-old child, RI Gail of tries to leave Nikko Chapter five. Coff meets with Nikkos sister at his place and reveals to her his knowledge of Nikkos crimes. He blackmails Nikkos sister to marry coff, and in return, he'll save Nikko or not say anything. She refuses.

    He won't let her outta the room. She tries to shoot him twice but fails to really hit him properly. He lets her go but picks up her gun that she left with one bullet remaining, puts it in his pocket and leaves. Chapter six, GY walks around town. Yeah, this is, I think, my favorite summary. Um, it always sounds so great when you form, put it like in two sentences.

    So the girl walks around town and visits a few pubs, gets soaking wet from the rain visits. His fiance late at night, gives a 15,000 rubles, [00:53:00] goes to a hotel, falls asleep, has two nightmares, wakes up early, walks around town and shoots himself.

    Uh, chapter seven, Gonko visits his mother and makes her understand that something is really wrong with him and he'll be gone for a long time. Back at his place. He tells his sister he'll hand himself in chapter eight, Nikko goes to say goodbye to Sonya. Goes to IA Petrovich powder keg to confess, hears about al of suicide and leaves again without confessing outside.

    He sees Sonya returns to Ilia, Petrovich, and finally confesses to murdering the two women. See a lot happened at that part. A lot of nights 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: did. Indeed. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I'm glad I wrote this down. Otherwise this would've been a 20 minute retelling. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: It was already like five minutes.

    Anyway, so I think we answered our question right. Whether he's gonna [00:54:00] get arrested by the police. Um, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: You correctly predicted it would happen. Well, I guess technically hasnt been arrested in the book, but 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: confessed. Yeah. He's confessed 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: to a policeman so, or a lieutenant. I dunno whether that's the same thing.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: What do you think about civil whole suicide scene or, or chapter?

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That was a bit of a weird one. Slightly unexpected. I think. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. It was also particularly weird because all of a sudden there was a very long part from somebody else's perspective that didn't have Nikko in it at all. And. I was a bit confused why he, yeah. So kind of all of a sudden was center of attention for such a long time also.

    I mean 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: that's, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So that's like, that's, we had the, we, I mean that's something I find a bit weird about osteo KY that we had it before with lun, right? Where we had this one chapter between LUN and the other guy talking for like 15 pages about fucking [00:55:00] whatever. And, um, but it 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: seemed more relevant in hindsight.

    And, and this just seems like if, for me, this chapter raised more questions than an answer because I'm still not a hundred percent sure I understand why he killed himself other than maybe realizing that he's a, a bad human being. Um, and 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah, it's really weird because, I mean, you know, in this long summary, also still left out lots of stuff like, for example, that he.

    I mean, Figa seems to be a kind of confusing character in general because he appears very dramatically, but both of us forgot who he was. Um, and had to look it up again. Then, you know, he's not in, he's basically only in third person until like page, what is it, 200 or something, 300? I can't remember which party he appears in, but he's basically not in it at all.

    And then throughout parts like four, five, and six, it just slowly drifts to being more and more that's about that [00:56:00] guy. And like one thing also, you know, there was always the question like, did, does he actually have a fiance? Right? Because he told Nik off, he has his fiance, he's gonna marry and blah, blah, blah.

    And I don't know whether we talked about this, but I always kind of assumed he doesn't have a fiance. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Turns out he does. And she's 16. That's nice. But so it was kind of also really random to see like, oh yeah, she actually exists suddenly like. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Just before his suicide, like, oh, okay. He's, he actually wasn't lying.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. But, but also what I found confusing because all of a sudden this topic of abuse came up in a way, because this is in the end, what would he did? Right. He kind of like seduced girls or, or, yeah. Other young ones. And especially his fiance. And he seemed to have a bit of a Yeah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, I mean, the seduced isn't really the word, right?

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Or [00:57:00] basically, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I can't remember exactly what the details were, but wasn't it basically he, I can't remember what happened. I mean, she was just like shit scared the entire time, right? Yeah. What did, didn't, wasn't she like sitting on his, on his knee just crying the entire time or something like that? Um, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah.

    I mean, I think she was grateful in some sense that he seemed to. Promise her money and, and security, et cetera. But I don't think that she actually wanted to be with him, but yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I dunno. It's what I find more, most confusing is just, uh, I think as you said earlier, that this just became so much a part of part six.

    Why do we have to learn all this stuff about his life with Marfa petrol and that they had this arrangement that he could have mistresses, which basically meant the maids who worked for him and that, um, or at least in a few cases, it was that, yeah, why do we need to know all of this? I dunno mean he left.

    So like, I mean, in a way, like he has the [00:58:00] main function he has kind of str like dramatically in the book, right? Is that he overhears the confession. So now you suddenly, it's not just two lovers who share knowledge about a dark secret. But it's a third person who's not, who has interests other than the two people, right?

    Mm-hmm. So that for me was always what I expected to be the main thing. And in a way it was still a big part of it, you know, with Nikko going up, hearing about, I lost suicide, then actually thinking, oh, maybe I'll just leave then. But yeah, it was weird to me that that was then suddenly like almost two entire chapters were just about sort, kind of, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah.

    Especially so late in the book. Yeah, I don't, because there's a lot of information. I feel that, as you've said, it is not in very important for the reader to know, and then he kills himself and then it ends in a way. [00:59:00] So it was a bit confusing to me to get all this information to 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: very 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: end. I 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: mean, I don't wanna be too cynical, but isn't it that, like with writers around that time, they were paid by like word count or something.

    I thought that was like around the time, I hope Dickens was around the same time. I dunno when Deacons lived. Uh, but I heard that like with Dickens was the same thing. They were per paid like per word or page or something. So that like their books are sometimes longer than strictly necessary. Ah, I don dunno whether that's the case here.

    I don't know. But I mean, I mean, let's be honest, we have six parts and they are all within 10 pages of each other or something. Um, could be a coincidence or intentional, I don't know. But yeah, it, it was a bit, I dunno, I mean like I, I've also heard dramatically sometimes writers will just, you know, you have this point that you're working towards this like ultra traumatic moment in this case, I guess whether, I mean either as Nikko confesses or he has to do something strong has to [01:00:00] happen for him to settle the question basically.

    And basically what do CF C's doing? He's, he's delaying. I was getting there. Right. Um, which I think is a pretty common thing to just like, build tension by just making people go like, yeah, but like, how does this relate to the main thing? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I don't know. Or maybe it's just a bit of mystery, like adding this sense of like, I mean, because, you know, in a way lots of other things could have happened.

    Right. What we, especially when he was the, the chapter about his suicide, he was walking around, he seemed almost in a similar state to Nikko in the beginning. He wasn't exactly thinking super straight the entire time or in a mentally stable state. He, and he had a weapon with one shot in it. And it's the question I first thought he might shoot us going off, I didn't know.

    Uh, or is it, is like, is he gonna, or is he gonna shoot the, or he wasn't gonna shoot the sister because he [01:01:00] could've, you know, killed her before she took out the gun or after whatever. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I mean, he could have, who knows what he could have done, right? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Although, I think I expect expected him to commit suicide.

    I think this one. Do you know why? Why? I thought so because he had first, um, made like a suggestion to, to Sonya pretty much alluding to the Nik office. Two options. Either he kills himself or kill, kills himself, or he confesses. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Mm-hmm. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: So the theme of suicide was brought up by him, therefore, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: but Nikko had already thought that himself also.

    Right. It seemed to me, that part seemed to me kind of obvious in the sense that OV had gone over the bridge and seen the woman trying to kill herself. And I don't know, it seemed to me like at, maybe at the time that was the thinking. It's like, oh, those are your two options. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Suicidal confession. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Similar today. [01:02:00] Um, yeah, I don't know. No, I, so I never assumed it. I thought more he was gonna do violence to someone else. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Uh, very briefly talking about his suicide. Uh, he held his gun against his temple, which is not always the, I'm assuming the best way to kill yourself because blowing out your prefrontal cortex is not necessarily water.

    You have to go with the motor areas or your brain stem. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I'm assuming I haven't looked at the statistics. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Well 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: also, but also like, depending on how you get it, like I think your isn't, uh, your, I think your forward isn't that also like one of the strongest like bones in the human body? So like if you get it, like if you, if you're too far at the front, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah.

    Not a good way to case it. Okay. Ne next point. Let's just assume that. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: mean, it worked. I think we can we, yeah, we can assume that it worked good 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: on him. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. But um, yeah, it's also like, do you know what it is almost like, [01:03:00] because we, we got, got told a lot of information about, about him, such as did he is a weird character.

    He's not easy. He has like this many layers to him. Right on, on one level he's in my eyes, a child abuser on the other level and probably Madre quite a nice guy. Yeah. But then also, like, I don't really know his reasoning for giving away money to, to people who can really need it. Which seems like a nice gesture and like there's some something inside of him that makes him think, although it's not purely altruistic, but.

    I don't know. He is not, he's not only, yeah. He seems to be a bit more complex and then when he has the nightmares that suggested something is storm like something is Yeah. Is troubling him. Yeah. Was 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: by what he did to [01:04:00] young children or, I can't even remember 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: exactly. Happened. Yeah. So I wasn't, I wasn't sure because this was, again, like when in the dream with the little girl, at first I thought that he was gonna abuse her because she was sick.

    He, she was super helpless. Nobody was around. And then he undressed her and I thought, oh no, where's this friend? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: But then about 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: that part, yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: But then he generally in the dream that is wanted to help her, but then it turned out to be a dream. So there was this bit of like ambivalence of this, like young help, helpless.

    Girl would, I don't know what, what did he really want or what, what did he want, want from, from people? I don't know. Um, I just feel like there is some, some complexity to his character, but it's too late in the book and to the book to, to really discuss as in detail. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I mean, what I find weird is also that he, you know, why was he [01:05:00] even in St.

    Petersburg in the first place? It's just kind of really, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: well for the women, no. Isn't that what he like? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That's what he says. But like, I dunno, it seems like most of the things he said seems to actually be true. But I don't know. Like, I, I initially thought it was kind of cool to introduce him because he seemed to me to add like an air of potential violence that was kind of almost more malicious or something than other people who seem just driven by desperation.

    And or despair. Um, whereas he seemed like, you know, suddenly there's this guy who has money who may or may not have killed his wife. But yeah, it just seems all a bit, it seems a bit random. It seems like he's, he's kind of involved in all the like, main plot lines. His sis like his life over him being kind of the [01:06:00] only real outside witness to Nikkos, initial Confe, not confession, but like saying that he killed someone he fits thematically.

    Maybe, maybe there are some parallels to Nikko himself, but it kind of doesn't quite work for me. I dunno. It's like he has a, he has some cool scenes here and there. He kind of fits in the plot lines, but somehow does. Really makes sense to me. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, but to be fair, I also never really paid too much attention to him.

    Even after the big entrance he made that, like, that part was always, uh, I think I mentioned this in the earlier part, the whole part of like, the sister and Lucy never seemed that interesting to me. So in the beginning, I didn't pay much attention to it. So maybe I, I would, maybe I'd understand him more if I paid more attention to him.

    But right now it seems a bit random. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Hmm. What do you think about, so in the very end was going of goes into to hand [01:07:00] himself in, but then he finds out about ri ri kind of suicide and then he decides to walk out again. I wonder what that was, was that. I didn't quite understand whether this was like he would source some opportunity to maybe blame MS for the murder.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: No, no. It 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: was just, there was no evidence or it, pardon 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: the evidence against him was gone. Right. The assumption here is always that Sonya is so nice, she'll never say anything to police anyway. Right. She's just put off as like so simple and she'll just do whatever he, but you know, she's not a danger. The only evidence, I mean, puff Petto, which came to Oscar and said, I know it was you, I just don't have any evidence, but you hand yourself in will get you eventually, but they have no evidence.

    Right. So the only, the only outside evidence or Yeah, the only person who could have said anything against or that, so I dunno exactly what the, the status of. [01:08:00] Evidence and eyewitness testimony was in the Russian courts of the 1960s, uh, 1860s. But I could imagine that back then, if someone says, I heard him say that he did it, then that counts quite a lot.

    Mm-hmm. So the way I always understood it is that, so first Oscar Ooff thought sooner there was this, this, this merchant or whatever, who on the road said, you are the murderer. Uh, and then Nikko thought like, oh shit, I'm gonna get caught. This is not good. And then this other guy, Mikkola said, confessed or whatever, was this confusing scene.

    And then it turns out, or Nikko realized there's action, no hard evidence against him. And then he just, he was completely calm, I think, after that, right. I think then he started speaking pretty normally and not being just all over the place and basically giving himself away all the time. But then he realized.

    That there now is evidence because someone overheard him tell about the murder. And now I think again, he has this, I think like he has these two conflicting things, right? The one is [01:09:00] the kind of conscience or his guilt for having done, committed the horrible act, which I think is pretty minimal in him.

    And the other is the kind of, what's the probability I'm gonna get caught. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And I think as soon as Lov died, he realized I'm not gonna get caught unless I hand myself in. So he left because why would he? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: There's no reason to, unless you think that as Sonya does, and as I guess she convinces him by just standing there, um, there's some sort of value to confessing your sins and standing up for what you did.

    Unless you really believe in that, there's no reason to hand yourself in. Right. That, and Ola might have gone to prison or know. Mm. But I think as we've established, and as I'll talk a bit more about later, Konik Off doesn't give a shit about anyone other than himself, including Koola, who would go to prison or whatever for his, his acts.

    So, um, no, that, I mean, that made complete sense to me, like, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: [01:10:00] yeah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: why would he? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. But, and s sex is. Change of mind at the very, very end. Because when he still, before he goes to hand himself in, he talks to his sister and, um, sister says something along the lines of, oh, by handing yourself in, you've already made up for part of your crime or whatever.

    And then, and then he say he disagrees with her. He says, oh, I didn't commit a crime. I just killed some old woman. Um, the only, yeah, it would, I think the only thing he's struggling with more is that he seems to be some sort of ordinary person rather than some extraordinary, but, but he still doesn't think, or doesn't feel very guilty, but then he turns himself in.

    Then he finds out about the suicide, walks out, sees Sonya, and then everything changes. He turns [01:11:00]round and confesses. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Well, that's, I mean, I think that is her role, right. To, to either stand in for or remind him of his inner moral compass or whatever you wanna call it. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, so I think when he sees her, I mean also there's like, there was also like this one part where, you know, he wanted to leave without her.

    Right. We left without her, and then he was like wandering around town and then he saw that she was like following him basically. And this was this part where he, there was something like he realized she was always gonna be there with him or something like that. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And in one way, you can see this as this kind of romantic, oh, she's gonna be there for him, whatever.

    But if you see her more as a symbol of his moral compass than it's moral. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: skilled or whatever is always gonna be with him. Um, and I think when, when she, when he sees her standing outside the police station or whatever, um, I think he's just reminded of this, like it's not going away. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. [01:12:00] And it's actually an interesting way to think about it.

    Um, and I think you're probably right. It is indeed not very romantic, but probably as you say, more. More it's both. I think it's best to be both. Yeah. But it's not gonna leave him this reminder of, of what he's done. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That's a good thought. I just had life on air. Right? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Well done. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Thank you. Yeah. Um, no, this is, I mean, this is something I want to talk to you about more, like in the last part when we just discussed the whole thing.

    But I've realized I had, so I've, I've, I've thought so much more about this book than any other book, just because we've been talking about it. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And I definitely wouldn't have had that thought if we weren't doing this. No, that's true. But yeah. Um, by the way, I wanna talk briefly. I'm kind of, I have to admit, I, so I understand it from Hasko's perspective, but I'm kind of.

    Disappointed that he didn't confess to Po Petrovich. [01:13:00] 'cause Po Petrovich is so annoying in the best way possible. Um, and I wrote down one point, so I really like how he, so when he visits Nikko, right? He starts off again with his whole, like talking about and doing whatever and just beating him out the bush and not really getting to the point.

    But then all of a sudden, just like that, he's like, by the way, I know you killed the person. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Like he really goes from like, he almost plays like good cop, bad cop with alone by himself basically. Um, I really like that as a, as a tactic that must be super effective if this person you feel, if you feel like, oh, this guy's so annoying.

    He's, he's like, he knows something, but he's not saying it. Whatever. And then suddenly he just goes right at it. But what are the, he's 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: very much in. Yeah. No, he's very much in control of his own emotions. In contrast to Tonik, everyone else is not tool everyone else. Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, one thing I found also interesting is [01:14:00] that at least there wasn't a lot of text here, so maybe it's more coincidence, but it seemed to me that the difficult part for us Goov when dealing with Pato, which was the uncertainty of what he knew, because as soon as Pato, which said like, yeah, I know you did it.

    I just, I'm just, I'm still finding evidence, but I'll get you, or rather you'll hand yourself in anyway. As soon as he says that, US Konik, I think becomes much calmer and clearer in his thoughts and in his speech. I felt like he was, he, I think before it was this constant thing like, oh, what does he know?

    You know, what's gonna happen? But then suddenly when he accused him, he was like, no, didn't do it. Or can't remember exactly what he said, but I. I just found that interesting kind 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: of thing. Well, he says very little actually. You know, and, and he listens more. And then in the end he says something like, well, just so you know, I didn't confess anything.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. But he plays it pretty cool then, right? Yeah, as soon as like everything's on the table, he's [01:15:00] able to deal with it again. Um, just found that, you know, I think often in, in life it is harder to deal with uncertainty than to have the facts. And that reminded me of that. So, one thing I was thinking about is that, as I mentioned earlier, to me, the whole sister plot seemed way outta proportion, basically, to, to me it never seemed like that was really supposed to be a big part of the story.

    So there's, and it really reminded me of something that Alfred Hitchcock talked about. So, uh, you know, film director Alfred Hitchcock who made, uh, now I'm forgetting all the films, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: the birds 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: psycho, the birds man, uh, whatever. Lots and lots of good films. Anyway, he talked about this concept of the McGuffin and the McGuffin is basically something that, it doesn't really matter what it is, it's just something that advances the plot.

    So for example, in Psycho the, I can't remember what her name is, but the main character steals some money in the beginning and then flees. It doesn't really matter, like what the money's f you know, [01:16:00] it just, it's just something that gets it to flee. Um, and then stuff happens and then after that it's irrelevant.

    And to me, this, the plot with Oscar Nikkos sister, getting married to Lucian seemed like a McGuffin. It's just something to, you know, he's a, he's kind of stressed out and it's just something that pushes him like over the edge. So he then commits the crime and I'm really confused that, you know, we're not finished with the book, but we're pretty much finished with the book and it's become such a, like throughout, it's become such a large part with sort the guy love the sister, the Mother Lu, all these people.

    I feel like, I dunno, it wasn't really that relevant. Is it, is it a a genuine interesting plot line or is it a McGuffin that is just taken outta proportion? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Well, this is why it's a six part book over pages, 600 pages. Because there are lots of different plots, right. That and there is this one main plot, but then they're like side plots in a way.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: [01:17:00] Yeah. But like the thing that I'm almost a bit disappointed now is that there wasn't more stuff about either nikkos guilt or his sense of, am I gonna get caught? Or like something about like, I dunno, it just seems to me like the sister plot is kind of not that interesting almost. Um, I dunno in a way. Of course, of course.

    It relates a lot to many other things. Talked about such that, you know. The, the men provide the finances basic for the women, at least in that society, um, at the time. And how that, you know, affects house filo talks to women or interacts with 'em to some extent. Yeah. Also, basically Konik just the same as Sonya, right?

    He sees someone who's poor and gives her all he has basically. Um, so like it fits in, of course, thematically with a lot of the other plot lines. It just, I dunno, it never struck me as that. Interesting. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. But only you thing that it's like almost like a [01:18:00] comparison of how different people try to escape the situation and there's this No, that's 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: a good point.

    Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Um, Nikko is maybe like the male stereotype or ne negative version of stereotype of applying force and violence, trying to help himself and get him out of a certain situation, whereas his sister. Although she's calculating to some extent, she doesn't really ever like Lucin, but she would marry him for her own good to get out of her situation, but then sees it obviously that that's not the way forward.

    So she, she is some sort of character change or development in the way that she seems to realize something. And also in the end, she, she really doesn't want to be with this

    because [01:19:00] I think also 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: why not? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: No, but you wouldn't, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: she's such a great guy. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. But even knowing that he might have some money, et cetera, so she seemed to have learned something. Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I just realized that it's all this question of like. People getting married, like everyone seems to be getting married to at least two people in this book at some point.

    Um, it just occur to me that the two by far best men in the entire book are probably Mian and p Petrovich. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Because they're just not psychopaths basically. That's like, they're they're not drunkards, they're not violent. Um, yeah. They've got, they've got it going. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm. Yeah. That's true. What do you think about the mother?

    Did she, in the end kind of know what had happened but didn't want to see it? Or 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: did she know that people were murdered? I can't remember whether [01:20:00] she knew about the crime itself. I mean, she definitely knows that some, that some things really messed up. Right. She knows that, but I don't know whether she actually, probably right.

    But 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I think she did. I mean, I don't, I. Can't pinpoint the moment where she would've found out, but it seems like this was common knowledge. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: It seems like when like m would've been there and visited his sister and his mother, then he would've, or like Lucy was there, or, yeah, it seems like in one of those group scenes it would've mentioned or something like that.

    I, I mean, I think in part it's, I mean, I think in part she knows Oscar's not gonna tell her anyway, for whatever reason. And in part I think it's because she just seems quite estranged. I think, you know, she expected, I mean, I think as, as she said, I think in part, when is it three or whatever, oh, I was gonna meet my son again.

    And then she [01:21:00] realized like the guy's just all over the place, a complete mess. Um, and something happened. So I think she realizes like that he's just someone who, she, someone other than who she was expecting to meet and that. They dunno this trust between them that he's gonna tell her what's gonna happen anyway.

    And also maybe that it might be for the better if she doesn't know exactly what's going on. Um, but I think she, you know, it's also probably the thing you seems like she also kind of voluntary, kind of accepts it, but then again, probably doesn't have many options anyway. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. I wonder, it almost to me seems like she either, she's like super naive and really stent puts him on a pedestal or she just doesn't want Oh yeah, that's 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: actually in the last one, she still says like, you're gonna be like a great lawyer.

    Yeah. Or whatever. Right. Yeah, that's true. She does say that. Yeah. I [01:22:00] dunno, I, I read it as, I mean, she definitely knows that something's going on. That's really bad, I think. But I mean, to be fair, if she says this to her son, it might be also like a last ditch attempt to. I mean, maybe she recognizes that he has a real problem with being a very average person and that maybe she's trying to like, you know, boost his confidence or whatever.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Dunno whether 19th century Russians were big and confidence boosting, but 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, you okay? Uh, or do you wanna ask more, talk more about the mother? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: No, that's all. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. I have a question. Do you think Doky ever owned a watch? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Probably maybe a pocket watch 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: because, so a, I dunno, two weeks ago or something I saw on Reddit, there was a, on ask Reddit, there was a question, which is like something like, what's a really, what's something in novel that, or in novels that really annoys you?

    And one person wrote, when people write something like, and then this person, and then they looked at [01:23:00] each other for a minute. Do you know how long a minute is? Like, that's a really long time to stare at each other. And there's a lot of that in this part. For example, when, I can't remember exactly, I think it's, and Nikko, I think it's them two.

    They talk or something and then they sit and look at each other for like 10 minutes or something. And then there's a few other points where people just stare at each other for a minute straight. Oh, I can't unsee it now. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I didn't, I didn't pick this up. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, it's one of those things I think like you just like over read it until you actually like think about, like look at someone and count down a minute.

    It's a long time. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: People don't do that for that long and they definitely, I think Vic and Oscar Nikko just sit opposite each other for 10 minutes. I think it says at some point without saying anything. I was like, probably not though. So I'm wondering like whether he, I dunno how common, like wrist watchers were, pocket [01:24:00] watchers or whatever.

    But I would be surprised if he never actually owned a watch. I. Like, you know, when you, when you think something was like ages and it was only like two minutes or something? Yeah, I think there was a lot of that going on. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Well, but then maybe he just wanted to exaggerate. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Oh, I hope he did.

    Um, okay. So I have, uh, only really one main point I wrote down. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Which is my recurring, I should say. I've mentioned a few times just how much hask OV doesn't have a conscience. And I think how he just doesn't care that he killed people or anything like that. Like he just doesn't have any remorse.

    And I think in this part it emphasizes a lot more. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, so first is, I think you mentioned this one earlier. Uh, page 621, he's talk, you know, talking to his sister. She hugged him close and by going off to suffer, [01:25:00] are you not already washing away half your crime? She cried. Squeeze him him in her arms and kissing him.

    Crime. What crime? He cried. In a southern surge of fury. I murdered a vi noxious Laos, some hag of a money lender of no use to anyone who's murder makes up for 40 sins, who sucked the juice from the poor. And that's a crime. I don't even think about it. I don't even think about washing it away. I don't care that you are all prodding me with your crime.

    Crime. Only now do I see the full absurdity of my pity cowardice. My petty cowardice. Now, whenever I've already decided to accept this pointless disgrace, I'm despicable and talentless. That's the only reason I've decided, and maybe also because it's in my own interests as that man suggested that properly.

    Yeah, and then he goes on. I've shortened this part, but then on 6 22 he says. This whole idea was nowhere near as stupid as it is, as it now seems in the light of failure, everything seems stupid in the light of failure. All I wanted was to ensure my independence, to take the first step to get what I needed and let the [01:26:00]immeasurable benefits, relatively speaking smoothly, everything over.

    But even the first step was too much for me to cope with because I'm scum and that's all there is to it, and I refuse to look at it your way. If I'd pulled it off, I'd have been crowned. Instead. I'm trapped. So they said no remorse there. So the, yeah, the first thing is, I think, so this is something, you know that I just wanted to extend something that we mentioned earlier, like the question maybe of whether Sonya is supposed to stand in for his conscience or maybe she reminds him of it or something.

    I don't know. But like he, as I mentioned in previous parts, like he never thinks, as he says, he never thinks about the problem of what he did or something. He only thinks about, am I gonna get caught? And that really upsets him. Maybe we'll talk about this more in the. I have like a general discussion, but I feel like he has no, he's, this is not a book about morality and whether you can, you should be allowed to do those things.

    I think [01:27:00] he's, he's just a narcissist or something. I dunno exactly what that is, but he just thinks he's better than everyone else and could do whatever he wants and has like no empathy or anything. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: And I think it becomes very clear because I think there have been some parts in the book where I wasn't sure whether he felt remorse or not, where I felt guilty.

    And it wasn't, to me at least, it wasn't so clear. But in the end it really becomes clear. He's like, no, he's not. He doesn't feel sorry for anything he's done until the very last moment where he turns around. I mean, we still don't know exactly what's going on inside of him, but something. Made him seeing Sonya just made him turn around because she would've, you know, like in theory could have just walked past her.

    She wouldn't have been violent. She probably would've not told anybody, but, but something about her made him turn around. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Do you think that's the romantic, uplifting conclusion from this whole [01:28:00] story, that love to a penniless prostitute who you can basically control and where he can finally live out his sense of grandeur over someone else?

    Um, do you think that that kind of love can make you I don't 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: think so. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Get a sense of conscience? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I don't even know whether, like, we don't really know whether he loves her. Right. Um, it's, we know that she loves him and maybe that seeing that she has absolutely no reason to love him, but she still does.

    Makes him realize something or it makes him, yeah, I don't know. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Or he likes the power, right? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: he has, he's more, he has more money than her. I mean, not really more, but his, he, he is less desperate than she is in a way. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: What I, it's slightly different topic, but what I'm surprised by is that not a single time came the, um, sort of the things he stolen.[01:29:00] 

    Nobody ever mentioned like he never went to liquid. So the money and 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, but they talk about it, right? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Did do talk about it, but it's never, he never considers going there and getting it, or it's, it is never really, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: so I mean, they know that exists under some rock, right? I think Puff Pet, which says that I, I think because Zu and heard it or whatever, uh, you know, heard Nikko say it when he was feverish and talking in his sleep or whatever.

    So I wonder whether maybe he just never went there. Also because he knew that if he went there, people might see him. And if he knows where the, is lute the correct word, uh, is hidden, then that's basically evidence against him. But then again, I get, I, as I said, that I'm kind of also disagreeing with that because he could have thought it at least, and he never even thought it, you know, he could have thought like, oh, I should go there.

    No, I shouldn't do that. 'cause then I get back in court. Mm-hmm. So, I mean, but that's kind of, isn't that, don't they discuss [01:30:00] this early on when they say like, he, he didn't even kill her for the money basically. Yeah. He did it as a hobby. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Uh, I have, just going back briefly, last point to Konik off being a terrible person, um, I present evidence number 500, which is okay, actually this sounds slightly less bad than when I first read it.

    Nikkos and his sister are parting ways in the street or whatever. They walk away, she turns around and he just gestures to her to leave basically. And then he thinks I'm being spied for. I can see myself, he thought a minute later, ashamed of his petulant, gestured towards Donya. But what must they love me so much if I don't deserve it?

    Oh, if only I'd been on my own and no one had loved me. This is the part now that I remembered. And I'd never loved anyone. None of this would've happened. Actually, when I first read this, I remembered this as him thinking like, oh, I'm too lovable. Like I'm, I'm too [01:31:00] loving. Sorry. Like I'm too caring. That's why I killed, killed the murders.

    But now wearing again doesn't sound quite as bad. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: No, I don't think so. I think what the way I understood it is that if he wouldn't have loved his mother and his sister, he most likely would've never committed the murder because this was the final trigger that 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, but that is the point though, right?

    You didn't kill her because you loved your mom. You killed her because I know something's really wrong with you and you don't mind killing old people if it suits you. You know, as I said, very in like part two or whatever. Like he never even considered like owning money another way other than killing an old woman.

    And then as you said, as you just said, he never even took the money. Right. He, he makes it seem as if it's like the whole problem is that he has and receives too much love when the problem is that, I dunno, he seems to set this problem by killing old women. You see what I mean? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Yeah. Do you see what you mean?

    But I think in his mind, this [01:32:00] is still some, some reason for why he is done it. And maybe he's just, yeah, in this moment, I think he's just telling him, oh, if I would've just been alone, I would've never done this. And like, I wouldn't have felt the need to, and blah, blah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. But obviously that's not true.

    Right? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, he's just, he's, that's, that's kind of the point. Like he's pretending he's better than he is. Um, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: sure. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But no, number one saying like, this is the only circumstance in which would've happened. And secondly, yeah, I'm true. I'm true, loved and loving. That's what I kill people. Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, the epilogue is what, like 40 pages or something?

    30 pages, but it seems like it's kind of settled, right? It seems like everything's pretty clear to me. Like he's confessed. He's gonna get, I think they said either he's gonna be executed or set to Siberia. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, Zoya gonna, [01:33:00] in whatever capacity, gonna join him in Siberia if he goes there, Mola, it's a big question why he confessed in the first place to a crime.

    He obviously didn't do. Uh, was fit. I lost half the people actually dead already. So the guy love's dead. Obviously the two women are dead. Mom, a lot of is dead. His wife's dead. Uh, he had the children, Sonya's step siblings or whatever. They're in this orphanage, which apparently is amazing. At least it's the Westford guy.

    Love. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: sells it. Um, seems like everything's pretty much, I don't know the sister, mother, they're probably gonna, I don't know. What Do you think they're just gonna return home or are they gonna marry? She's gonna marry kin. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I think they're gonna stay in St. Petersburg. I think they've changed, at least the sister's changed.

    Uh, I don't think she would go back and try to resume her. No. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: You don't think she would do that? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: No, I don't think so. Okay. [01:34:00] 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Do you think she's gonna get a new haircut to symbolize her personal change? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Probably highlights, um, yeah, but I think she will stay with MI think that seems like a good match. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. He seems right.

    He seems to have, you know, when he wants more money, he doesn't go, I should murder old ladies, but he thinks I should translate. I mean, he's also kind of frauding people because he says, I don't even speak German or whatever, and translate stuff anyway. So in a way he's not exactly doing things properly either.

    But it seems definitely a step up from Yeah. Uh, very boring and calculating, losing from murderous fi love. Mm-hmm. And whatever else. Puff petro, which hopefully gets a raise. I like him now. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Yeah, but I think everything's just gonna be, I expect only like a conclusion of, of things rather than, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah, exactly.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Any, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: it's probably gonna be like [01:35:00] 20 years later and everything was, and then it's like a fairy tale and everyone lived happily ever after everything resolved itself. Um, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah. But I wonder whether there is, there might be some hinge to whether he actually regrets or whether he now feels guilty for the murder or whether he purely turned around because he saw Sonya and I don't know, like what, maybe there's gonna be some, does he actually feel it now?

    Does he feel guilty or was it just because he doesn't wanna disappoint Sonya? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I wouldn't be surprised if he spends the last chapter in Siberia going, oh, fucking Sonya made me confess. I hate her. I really wouldn't surprise me. Number one, he ruined his life. Actually. Fun fact, always women, number one. It was the sister for marrying, for going to marry that stupid lucid.

    Number two, it's [01:36:00] uh, whatever her name is, uh, the, the porn broker for having all this money being mean number three. I wouldn't be surprised if it's now her. Yeah, it's now Sonia for making a good place. We'll see.