20. Book club: Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoevsky, Parts 3 & 4

In this episode, we discuss part 3 and then part 4 of Fyodor Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment (Oliver Ready's translation for Penguin Classics).

For this first book club series, I'm joined by Antonia. We did our Masters degree in Brain and Mind Sciences together at UCL. Since then, Antonia has gotten a PhD in psychology and now works in scientific publishing. 

Timestamps
0:00:05: Beginning discussing Part 3
0:56:00: Beginning discussing Part 4

Podcast links

Ben's links

  • [This is an automated transcript with many errors]

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: [00:00:00] Okay, so this is now the third episode of our very insightful discussion about Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment. Uh, and as before, due to the fitting structure of the book, we're gonna read part three, we'll discuss part three today. We're also, so I'm gonna summarize very briefly, and this time I'm actually gonna try and be brief.

    What happened in part three? So, so we left off part two. Maybe start there. We left off part two where us go and look off and EK came to Nikkos Place where Nikkos mother and sister awaited them, and chapter one starts then with them, the conversation between them starts then. I think I'm gonna summarize the beginning very briefly by saying there's just a lot of talking in the first two chapters.

    You know, obviously Nikkos mother and sister don't [00:01:00] expect Nikko to be in the state that he is in when they decided to visit him. So they're all very upset and Ko and then, I can't remember exactly what I think Kin then says, well, you guys go home to like the, the, the place that they're staying in. He will call the doc, he'll get the doctor again, they'll look after Konik cough for the night and the others should just relax.

    Uh, then we also learned that probably the most important piece of information in the entire book, Konik Off's sister, is very attractive, at least in the eyes of Rakin, who immediately starts hitting on her as you do. Although somehow I expected this to be like a major, like a plot point that continues throughout the part.

    But then I think he was just drunk. Then after that he feels a bit shitty about having done that. And that's the end of it pretty much. Then? Yeah, I think then basically there's, then it's just the next day, right when after Oscar Goov, he feels much better now. He seems, at least at the beginning to be much more [00:02:00]normal.

    Um, and they all have a long discussion, but then you, everyone realize very quickly that like they said, like he seems all fine, but then everyone kind of already seems suspicious the way he's behaving because he's still being a bit weird the entire time and everything seems a bit affected. His sister then actually confronts him about the whole, or rather us Nik off then says, by the way, I still don't want you to marry Lucin.

    It's either him or me and his sister says, dude, what's your problem? Um, and then says like, I am not marrying him to save you and marrying him for my own sake. I think they then pretty much leave. And then Oscar Nikko and Kin decide to visit Kin's, I believe cousin or something. The police inspector in charge of the murder investigation.

    Uh, what's his name now? I hate Russian novels. Why? There's so many names. Prophy Petrovich. [00:03:00]I've never heard the name Por. Anyway, por petrovich, they go and visit him because Nikko says, actually, you know, I was a paer at the lady who got murdered and I left. I she say that was my watch and my ring or whatever it was.

    Um, so they basically want, he wants to make a statement that he wants to collect those things. And then we have what I first thought was gonna be the most interesting part of part three, namely them talking to p Petrovich. And then of course you have the question there, is he gonna find out that. Nikko murdered the Lady.

    And it's kind of interesting because Povi Petrovic seems to be a bit of a prankster in general, and you're never quite sure exactly what he's doing, um, by his questioning. Anyway. We also learned that Nikko wrote a essay that appeared that was published, uh, about a year and a half ago, in which he basically argued that under certain circumstances, certain people should be allowed to overcome any obstacles, including murder.

    And [00:04:00] yeah, again, I wanted to keep the summary short. So let's just say then Oscar Nikko supposed to go meet with his sister, his mother and Lucy to discuss the matter, but then he goes home instead. And on his way out, again, some random guy appears, some tradesman who hask, who basically asks, is that, is that Henikoff?

    The housekeeper says, yes, that's him. Then the guy just leaves again. Nikko follows him, asks, Hey, why are you like, why'd you care who I am? And then the guy just says, you are the murderer. Um, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: you are the killer. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Or the killer. Sorry. Yeah, exactly. You are the killer. And then Nikko again has one of those complete psychic breakdowns, pretty much.

    Uh, when he goes home and sleeps again for way too long. And then we end with the great cliffhanger when suddenly some man appears in his, uh, room, [00:05:00] sits down and introduces himself. And that's how Part three ends. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: And maybe we should add that this man, man seems to be a wealthy background. At least he's described as room.

    No, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: wait, lemme see.

    Sorry. Which, um. Do you mean the last mine, right? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Well, we're making this up now. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I think so. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: No, I'm not. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Wait, is it? Wait, I'll just read the part because I think it's a great clear f to ed part. Oh no, I'll read it at the end. Um, anyway, I can't see. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Um,

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: he was no longer young, young, solidly built with a thick light beard. That was all but white. That's a ivanovic

    of, [00:06:00] anyway. Maybe he was groomed. I just don't think it's mentioned. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Why do I think that he's wealthy? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: because he's solidly built. Can't cut this apart out, obviously made this. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: No, I'm gonna loop this 10 times. Yeah. Um, yeah. Anyway, um, this was just supposed to be a brief summary to roughly remind everyone's going on.

    Also, I had the thing when I. I keep forgetting like how much is mentioned in each part. I always like when I, I often read like two chapters at a time or something and then it always seems like it's so long ago, but then you realize that no, this is all still in part three. Like I'd forgotten that the whole meeting with his mom and a sister that they hadn't actually met until part three.

    Um, kind of forgotten that. Yeah. Just how much happens in each part anyway. Um, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: so I think this was the most interesting part so far. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Really? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. [00:07:00] 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I found the beginning of it boring. Like the whole, there was a lot of talking in like the first 50 pages or something. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, maybe that's true. But, um, the whole conversation of um, uh, between.

    Kins relative, who is the superintendent or whatever, hopefully, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: whatever. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. The main tech or police officer, or whatever you wanna call them. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Who is, um, responsible for solving the matter case, because this is basically the whole, is the theme of the book. It brings us back to the question we had very, at the very beginning, is it justified to commit a crime, crime for some other greater good?

    Um, and, um, Nikko basically divides people, or like, well, his main argument is that in, in certain circumstances, so called extraordinary people who have some idea or some [00:08:00] vision or want to achieve something, which is for the greater good. They are permitted to, to achieve that good, to commit a crime, including murder.

    And basically for them, such people is not the law, which is the principle of everything in which they is blindly followed, but it's their own conscious or their own moral, ethical understanding, which they have abide by. And if it is to achieve something greater, then they can also commit, commit a murder.

    It's a main argument. And I think we, we talked about this when we discussed the first part, um, when we talked about the conversation that kin had, um, uh, Nikko had overheard in about. About whether it will be justified to cure the, the woman, um, in order to [00:09:00] relieve people from their death. Yeah. So I found, I found this con conversation very interesting, and obviously the policeman and detective, I don't know what is title, he kind of like misunderstands them, uh, misunderstand

    or at least what he's written in the article because he thinks, or I don't know whether, thinks it, or whe whether he consciously or like whether he wants to misunderstand him. But basically he, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: oh, sorry, just completely interrupt you here. You said for earlier that the guy was wealthy, right? Yeah. I, I wanted to see, I was just wanted to look up what the job title is.

    It's Chief investigator of Po Petrovic, chief Investigator. Yeah. Anyway. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Okay. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Allow me to introduce myself. Akai Ivan is the guy who's sitting in the chair, and that's a nobleman, a country gentleman with a disputable past. So that's actually, he [00:10:00] is the, yeah, maybe's the nobleman who they talk about earlier.

    Yeah. Sorry. You're actually correct on 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: that. Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And I think also I accidentally realized that, yeah, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah. For some reason, I, I needed maybe because I don't know, I needed to use a no. And also I think one hint is when he, in, when it says he placed his hat on its side, on the floor and l with both hands on his cane, a person, a man with a head and a cane is usually somebody who's not completely poor.

    It's usually more than again. So where does it 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: say that? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Page 30, uh, 330 Thor. Uh, 333. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: At the very bottom. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, I mean, you have to be pretty dandy to have a cane. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, yeah. But no, I think if I remember correctly then that is the guy, isn't that the guy who beat his wife and then she had a stroke afterwards?

    Isn't that the same guy? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I think so, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah. Anyway, sorry. Um, I [00:11:00] just, I just, yeah, just what I wanted to look up that think Guy Petrovic, whatever his first name is Chief of is his title. Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. So just to summarize what I've said, I think this is the, for, for me at least, one of the most interesting parts when they argue about whether one would ever be permitted to, to commit a crime and under what circumstances and who, or also one thing they, they say is that obviously the person itself might think they are permitted to commit a crime for some great idea, but they might not actually be.

    So, and I think this is like a difficult question because there some scenarios in which you. And which just seems very obvious that it would be justified to, to commit a crime such as maybe killing a dictator to serve, uh, to, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: are you trying to kill baby Hitler? Again, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I think it's just like a, a black and white example.

    But if you had the [00:12:00] opportunity to save millions of people's lives by killing a dictator, maybe there will be, obviously you can argue about this, but maybe that's a, uh, a case in which most people would say that's a justified action. You, it would be a justified killing. However, in other circumstances, a bit more shady and you know, like for example, would, in the case of dilemma, if the person is innocent, you killing is justified to, to kill one innocent person to save.

    Five people's lives. This is where it gets a bit more complicated. So, um, so to talk about how, how the person who wants to commit the crime can know that it is, that they are actually justified to do it. Um, and I found, I found this conversation quite interesting and also [00:13:00] it seems to me that it's very clear that the chief investigator knows, or at least he has some very strong suspicion that just knik cough is the murderer.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. That, I mean, I agree. Uh, just when I said earlier that I found part three, the. The least interesting. I actually think like the last two chapters are really picks up again. Mm-hmm. I think it's just like the first half that I found a bit boring. Yeah. So I agree that this is, that, that that discussion's interesting or I don't really find it interesting for the arguments they make, but I find it interesting for the stuff that goes around it.

    So, so for me, the main question like, you know, it was always like, how much does Po Petrovich know why exactly. Like he, you know, he, he expected Nikko to come just because he was the last porn who didn't, who hadn't turned up yet to mention the thing. But what I find interesting is that this, this, I call him chief [00:14:00]investigator now because I hate saying his name.

    Uh, it's just a weird name. Uh, so the chief investigator is introduced, I think, by kin also as being a bit of a prankster, where once he, what was it? He had this expensive suit and then pretended to be married. Or to get married. So all his friends were like setting up all this stuff and arranging stuff.

    And then it's like, by the way, I'm just making fun of all you, it's just a prank. Um, so he is introduced that way. And then, so from that on, I immediately think like, okay, so what exactly is he trying to do when he, for example, well, when he does any interaction with Oscar Nikko. And so I, for example, I think just, I mean, you said earlier that he misunderstands or the point that Nikko was trying to make.

    I would argue that that's almost irrelevant, I think, or not. I think it's just not true. Or I think the main point is, and this is, so one thing that I found interesting is that. [00:15:00] This is the, this chapter is the first time that we actually hear Konik off talk coherently in the entire book. So far we've had him, you know, he's always been mumbling, stumbling, vaguely fainting, shouting, whatever.

    This is the first time where you get like two pages of something of him just speaking in pure text. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Fluently, eloquently. I'm not even talking now about where, how good the points are he is making, but he's talking like a normal person for the first time. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Not even normal, but very, um, like thought through.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, exactly. I mean, he's, you know, in a way he's summarizing something he seems to have thought about quite a bit in the past, and so what, what I found interesting then I was wondering just maybe either the chief investigator misunderstood the point or he intentionally kind of slightly misunderstood something or pretended to, to get us konik off to speak because, you know, everyone keeps saying that, oh, Konik officer, ill, ill.[00:16:00] 

    He's not in the best of states or something, but suddenly, as soon as soon as you get him talking about something he likes, he seems to be completely normal. Um, it's just every time. Yeah. Although, interestingly, this is the first time when the murder of the lady is discussed and he doesn't have, he doesn't freak out immediately, but Yeah.

    But I'm not sure whether Petrovich even cares about any points that Hasko making. Um, maybe I've been watching too much like, uh, police drama on TV or something, but I think he's just trying to get him to talk, get him to say stuff. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Well, he want him to, wants him to com to admits that, that he thinks of himself as an extraordinary person who would also have the permission to commit a crime.

    So I think first of all, he wants Konik Oath to admit that, that he thinks that some people are allowed to commit a crime. And then secondly, I think [00:17:00] he's trying to get him to a point where he says that he thinks of himself as such a person. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I mean, he says to me, say at some point where it says like, well, you've written these things.

    You're clearly saying something here that's new. Uh, or you're making a statement. Doesn't that mean you are a bit of a extraordinary person? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And I think then Nikko says, I'm not Napoleon or Hammed. It's really weird to me that they talk so much about Islam that I didn't expect that I thought they'd talk about Jesus or something.

    But they talk about Hammed the entire time. I don't know. Yeah, I was just bit random I thought. But yeah, they're, I mean, Oscar Nikko does then say at some point, I don't see myself as one of these great people, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: but whether, whether he, what's not entirely clear to me is whether he really doesn't. Because I think for me, this part was like also a bit eye opening.

    Did he? Because as you've said, we've mainly known him as [00:18:00] somebody who's in a complete state of, um, yeah, despair, confusion, and he shouts and screams and faints, et cetera. Not coherent at all. And then when he talks about de chap, he's very coherent, very, everything he said is very thought through and it all, I came to wonder how much of this murder was actually planned based on some, like, um, theoretical ideas of, of crime and, and, and guilt.

    And also then at some, I think later after this conversation, he, so he, he says that he, um, having killed her, intended to take from her the precise amount and needed for the first step. No more, no less. So the rest really would've gone to the monastery in accordance with her. Well, haha, because, because I'm a Laos [00:19:00]pure and simple, he added in his teeth because I myself may still, maybe still foul and more horrid than it Lao I killed.

    And because I sensed in advance that this is what I would tell myself after the murder, can any horror compare it so vulgar, so survival or what or how I understand to profit with a sword on horseback like command survey. So 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: what page is that? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: It's 30, uh, three 30. But he says, because I sensed in advance that this is what I would tell myself after the mother, and this is right, this is like a, an inner monologue right after his visit to the chief investigator.

    Or after, actually, there's this, a man, this salesman who's been looking for him, and then he, yeah, he follows him and, [00:20:00] and, and that man tells him the guy 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: who might be a crucial witness. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. So considering everything he's just said about prime and, and guilt and responsibility and um, et cetera, it seems to me like he must have thought about this.

    Like there seems to be some sort of link between his action and his understanding or his, um, yeah, his understanding of what is justified. And I haven't, like, I don't, don't think we know exactly, but it's, it is almost like this part of him, although we know that he started studying law, but this part of him, up until the moment where they talk about the article that had been published, we don't really know about.

    His in, like this intellectual side of it, like, I don't know whether you call it intellectual, but um, the side in him that did things about these things on such level. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, I mean, I said last [00:21:00] time that this book can't be a book about morality almost because Konik cough is not intelligent enough to really make a point.

    Like he's just emotionally and psychologically so all over the place that it has nothing to do with any thought out, um, argument. But now, you know, in part three we get the exact opposite because we see that yeah, he used to actually, or maybe he still is in some perspective, but he definitely used to be a very thoughtful guy also to get something like published in one of those things.

    He doesn't, you know, he doesn't seem to have connections or anything as far as I can tell. Yeah. So he, he must have been published based on the argument he made, and people must have thought it was at least interesting. So yeah, I think it's interesting because we have these two sides now that we now actually have him as someone who.

    Seems to have really thought about this problem again. He seems to have thought about it. Main. Yeah, I mean he seems to have thought about the problem, but then pretty much for the first 270 pages or something of [00:22:00] the book, we only got him as an emotional wreck. So I wonder to what extent he, you know, it's like one of those things where you have like, like basically like he had a year ago or something, or that's when he published it, right.

    Or something. So like maybe even it must have started much more before that he really thought about this problem or this question, um, of whether it can be justified to murder someone or what exactly the question is. But then you have still this like, gap, right? Of a year, of until he actually does something about it.

    And it doesn't seem to me as if the actual carrying through of his crime has anything really to do. Still with the arguments he makes. Um, you know, he says like he doesn't see himself. As one of the great, oh, sorry. He says at some point, like the, he's asked like, so can anyone who's great, just do whatever they want?

    Or something like that, right? And he says like, well, no, not really. It has to be proportionate to the, [00:23:00]like, the greatness of the person or of the thing they have and want to share, um, has to be proportionate to the crime committed. So like, if someone just vaguely annoys a great person, you can't just kill them.

    Like that's, you know, it's completely outta proportion. So, but he, what he does is, is he decides to murder someone for a bit of money, right? So it doesn't really fit at all into, unless he thinks like that this financial problem is the only reason holding him back from being a total genius, unless that's the case.

    Then his arguments he made in the piece don't really fit. What he did, right? Mm-hmm. Um, like if, let's put it this way. If he'd said, you know, as I said earlier, uh, I think in our discussion, part one, like he could have just stolen money, like that would've solved his financial problems as much as killing someone that he maybe could have said like, well, I'm a special person because I'm a student.

    I steal some money so I can then live and like, share my [00:24:00] intellect with the world, or whatever. That's one argument, right? But he goes and kills someone. Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: You know, that's completely out proportion. So I, in a way, I see like how he, he's been dealing with these questions of morality, but then I think then in practice he just acted out of despair without any consideration for any kind of rational thought.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, maybe rise. One thing that's also alluding to this is that he, he didn't only kill one person, but two. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But I think that's different though, right? Because the second one was almost like, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: was not planned. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: He didn't plan to, he didn't want to. Um, and I think that was more like, so he could get away with it.

    And like that actually that was also like in the act. Like he was not, that's not something, something he planned for 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: sure. But if it would've been a very planned through action, maybe we would've had more scruple [00:25:00] and he would've been less likely to then randomly, not randomly, but spontaneously kill a second maybe if we would've had some like good reason for why he is allowed to kill somebody.

    Um, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah, I mean, I dunno. I think like, again, he, yeah, he cleared in planet. Well that's, you know, going to the point that I made earlier that he, his action does not necessarily come from his theories. Um, but I think you can't, so I don't think you can. I think the second murder was just, he just panicked in the moment and wasn't even thinking.

    But there is one interesting thing here that I wrote down, which is, let me see where it is. Paul Leeta again on page 330, Paul Leeta. Why did she have to turn up strange though? Why do I almost never think of her as if I'd never murdered her? And that's really telling to me because that's when I realized, hey, he hasn't, he hasn't had a [00:26:00] single thought of remorse, uh, at least not consciously about the entire action.

    Right. I mean, one question I wrote down, which is almost a rhetorical question now, is like his entire emotional turmoil, is that because he's feeling he has a conscience and he's feel like he did something wrong or he regret hurting people, whatever? Or is he just afraid of getting caught and. Because, and then like when I read that sentence, I really went, I thought like, yeah, he's just afraid of getting caught.

    He has no sense of feeling guilty for having killed anyone because this is pretty much the first, you know, we've spent now a hundred and almost 200 pages after the murder, and this is the first time he even thinks about the second person he killed. Right? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's true. And whenever he thinks about the other woman is like, yeah.

    He's also, um, he, he sometimes [00:27:00] admits his action was vile and and bad, but he doesn't really say it is bad because these are people that should have lived and,

    well, he is, I don't know because he is like, he's, he mentions a couple of times he doesn't, men mention. Avita and, um, doesn't feel sorry for her, but he still acknowledges sometimes that it was a bad action or 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. He doesn't really seem to care that much though. Right. You think like if he, if he really, like we have his internal dialogue or dialogue it, his internal monologue, um, uh, throughout the book.

    Right. And like if he really cared, he would've had more obvious thoughts along the lines of, oh no, she didn't deserve it. Whatever. Right. Like, I think he, [00:28:00] yeah, I don't think he really cares too much about it. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Dunno. Um, yeah. He doesn't seem to like, put himself into the, the victim's shoes and doesn't seem to,

    it's, it is certainly not, he's not trying to. Yeah, at least he doesn't talk about it. He feels sorry for having ended their life, but he still acknowledges that it's been a very horrible action. So, I don't know. Um, I don't know if he's just afraid of getting caught because I feel like there is, um, there's something else, but maybe, we'll, there's something else we'll find out a bit later on.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Like whether he actually, I mean, doesn't he talk about, uh, doesn't he talk about that in a discussion where he says something like the, [00:29:00] the conscience is the punishment, or something like that. There was some sort of statement like that, that I didn't write down. Um, the way he talks about something like the feeling bad about doing the action is the punishment for those people or something like that, but.

    Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, because in, in a second part, he, he describes his action as, um, as despicable, mild, and blow. So, one, one unrelated point in, in his conversation with the chief investigator, when the chief investigator, because of the main reason for going there is that he wants his two, two items back. So the, the earrings, his sister's earrings, I think, and his dad's watch, [00:30:00] which he had given to the, uh, porn broker.

    And so the, the reason why he's going there is so that he wants to ensure that this is not given away. So he goes there and tells, well, this is my stuff. And then chief investigators says. We know because it was, we found it wrapped up in some paper, um, with your name on it. Um, and the best thing is you just go to the police and report it.

    Just hand in like a written report and then a scholar asks if you can just use normal paper, I dunno, executive wording. And then I think it says 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: normal paper. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. And, and, and the chief investigator says, yeah, just like, you know, normal paper. And it seems like this is like a.dot. So wonder whether, because when he goes and kills, [00:31:00] when, when he goes and kills porn brokerage, he.

    Uh, secretary, he, he uses some, was it some like wood or whatever, some lead or something heavy and wraps it up in, in paper and wraps it really tightly so that it's hard to open and he gives it to her and when she turns around and tries to open it, this is when he kills her. So I wonder whether that's the same paper.

    Did he might have recognized that he's been using the same sort of paper? Oh, you think Exactly. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I didn't think of that. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Maybe, maybe not, but it just seemed like, this is such a weird little sentence of like, it, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I was a bit confused, but I can't remember. Was there a footnote for that with a normal paper?

    'cause if so, I didn't look it up. Uh, wait, I'll just see if I can find anything. But, um, that, that was one of those moments where also like, what. Like [00:32:00] first, like what kind of paper? But I thought like maybe he meant like legal paper because he used to be a legal student or something. Oh no. Ordinary paper here.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Ordinary paper, all official doc. Um, so it says in the notes, all official documents had had to be written on specialist and paper issued by Ministry of Finances. Those paper came in three varieties, ordinary being the cheapest. This category was itself divided into four further types. The most ordinary costing only 20 copies a sheet.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I dunno. I mean I think that's more statement about that, but yeah, I don't know. Mm-hmm. It's interesting because when you mention the thing, I completely forgot that he gave her that thing because he didn't take it with him. Right? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: No. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, so I wonder whether maybe they have that also as evidence or something.

    But then he didn't, it wasn't anything unusual. Right. It was just a bit of paper with. I mean, assume he didn't put his name on it. That would've, I, I'll be disappointed Doi Fki if, uh, if Nikkos name was on the piece of paper. [00:33:00] Um, but yeah, I didn't think about that. He just left that there. Yeah. I dunno. Um, actually, uh, so do you have more to say about that or, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: mm-hmm.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. So I have, uh, one thing we talked about last time I think we can answer now, which our question was what exactly are the friends' intentions, uh, kins? What are his intentions and does he know something that he's not letting on, uh, or that he's not, he's, he's hiding some secret knowledge about has konik off and the crime.

    I think we can say that's not the case, right? I mean, he seems pretty clueless about everything. I mean, he mentioned at some point like, oh yeah, you even mentioned like rings and stuff in your feverish ramblings and that kinda stuff. And I, I don't think he has any, I think he's just a friend, right? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah.

    Yeah. Um, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, mean maybe this is yeah, a big plot by, [00:34:00] by the chief investigator, but I think he's just naive. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: No. Yeah. I think too, especially when he's talking, when talking to the chief investigator and IC is like very, like, he doesn't seem to kind of like follow what's going on really. He seems to be like very annoyed at, at his relatives to be asking such questions and I don't think anymore that he necessarily knows a great deal.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. And I feel like also the, I mean, it could obviously still be an act, right? Cousin and the chief investigator together and kin just like plays along and it wouldn't be, it would be a pretty good plot, but, um, I dunno, I feel like also just the moment when Kin was drunk and met Nikkos sister, uh, and then hit on her and then felt bad about it later on, I don't know.

    It didn't, it seemed like a guy who was just trying to be nice. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Something. Yeah. Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And then, but was a bit dumb sometimes, so I [00:35:00] don't, yeah. I don't think he, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah. I still don't entirely understand why he's so committed to his friendship or why. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I mean, now it makes sense because he fancies the sister, but before that, why has he gone through all of that?

    Like, he could have just been like, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: he hadn't seen the sister before anything. Right. So it's not like, and I think also like, I mean, sure, maybe he fancies the sister, but he also, I think. I dunno whether this was after, before he saw her. But doesn't he also like defend Lu to ask and look off and says like, no, what's wrong with him?

    Like he's, he seems like a decent guy, so Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think we, yeah, it is still slightly confusing. He just does seem a bit weird. But I mean, he probably knows stuff, but without realizing that it's important. Like when he said like, oh yeah, he's mentioned all this thing about rings or whatever.

    But yeah, I don't think he knows much. Uh, I had another question which [00:36:00] was, uh, so I mean, obviously in this podcast we can't discuss the question of whether it's right to, for some people to do harm with others. I think that's a very big question. Uh, and without being careful, it very ly leads to. Uh, something that approximates what the Nazis thought and some sort of genetical superiority of some people.

    And there was some vague hints of some of this there. But one question I have is that we kind of like, as society, we kind of accept that position though, right? Like you have, like if someone has achieved something great, you're much more likely to forgive them for something. And if not, and there's many cases of musicians, actors, whatever, who did horrible things in their lifetimes and we just kind of brush over it almost and say like, well, but you know, there's such like we, we as society gain more from their work than we lose from their personal [00:37:00] actions almost, or something.

    Maybe it's changing slightly, but I still feel like as a whole, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: but are you talking about like finding out. In hindsight. So let's say for example, finding out after somebody's death that they had. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Well, I mean, there's lots of stuff, right? Like, let's use, so I mean, the best example is probably someone like Alman Polanski who in the seventies raped a 13-year-old or something like that.

    And who, so this is not an allegation. He confessed to the police and he was about to be trialed for it. And then he fled from the US and has been in exile pretty much ever, ever since. But he's also a great filmmaker and made after that, made films like the Pianist, um, and other works that are generally, um, seen as very, you know, he is still working with lots of great other people [00:38:00] together who are really good at what they do.

    Uh, we kind of, I mean, this is like the clearest case because he, you know. Like he confessed to doing it. Never, not only like, I mean it's not only raping, but I think also drugging her before, like he really like went as far as you can go pretty much in terms of doing something awful. And, but as a whole, people go like, yeah, whatever.

    He makes good films. I mean, and that's the guy who still around, right? Mm-hmm. Where everything was known at the time. Another similar cases are, I mean, I dunno how verified this is, but there's lots of stories of, lots of like rock stars from the seventies and eighties and sixties, having very young girlfriends, um, AKA raping children, uh, at a time when that also would've been considered that, and people kind of just don't look much further into it.

    Then you have, you know, then there's people like Wagner, right, who was a very blatant antisemite, and people go like, yeah, but the music's so great, [00:39:00] 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: but I'm See what you're saying. But isn't the, the argument was Nik of. Um, is making that he talks about an illegal action or a crime that serves a purpose in a sense that, for example, oh, you mean to 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: achieve the greatness almost, or, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah.

    At least this is what I understood and it's different to being a great, I see artist and and raping children, which is obviously horrible. Um, but it seems to me different because it's almost as an outsider and I think this is a bit of what we are doing with the Polanski and, and other people. We kind of like separate to this.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I see. Yeah, that's a good point. So like basically if, if the rape had been part of getting the art out there or something like that, then it would've been that's more what he means, right? Rather than just 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: someone Yeah. If [00:40:00] that would've, yeah. Okay. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: So this is like, um. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Right. So in the same like Nik of murdering the person is for him to get out of financial debt.

    He's not just randomly murdering pe. Yeah, okay. You're right. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Um, and I think this changes the situation. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's very useful every time. I think I have a good point. You correct me on, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: not necessarily correctly, but uh, this is the good thing about talking about it because you 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, yeah, no, that was very useful.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. It's just different, different views. Um, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: no, you're right. Like I, I, uh, missed that point that the point that Gonko makes is not that great. People should be allowed to do horrible things. The great point that, his point is that doing something terrible should not necessarily be in the way of something great coming outta it.

    Um, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: and I think there are like lots of historical examples, like if you think of like pretty much any revolutionary Yeah. [00:41:00] I don't know, like, like the history Nelson Mand or like whoever the, do you usually like find a chapter to your, where things didn't like where Yeah. Uh, there is some like, damage on the side.

    Right. And that might be life destroyed, people lives, lives destroyed, or people killed or being lighted or, or something being stolen, but it was just part of the revolution. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I mean, every, that's every war is though, right? Like you kill people, so 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: To, to, to get rid of the ideology behind it, right?

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. I think like with, um, there are a lot of examples where most people would agree with the other that was just necessary or that needed, um, needed to be done. Although the act itself out of context nobody would agree with. Um, that might be like killing somebody. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. [00:42:00] 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: But, but it's obviously not, not black and white.

    I mean, there are some examples where most people agree would agree that it's justified, but these are some, a couple of extreme examples. But I think day to day life, it's, it's just a bit more graded and, and not very, and not everybody agrees with the, um, what is just about, I think this is something you, you, you mentioned earlier is this aspect of an action being proportionate to the aim and certainly killing somebody just to, I don't know, for like a, a smaller, smaller aim isn't really, wouldn't really be justified, but killing somebody to save several people's lives, maybe in some instances.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I find the, I would, it would be kind of cool if this. If Doki had also published Nikkos essay, I would [00:43:00] be interested to read the entire thing. Uh, 'cause I do want exactly like what his point is. Like, for example, like, like in the abstract it sounds maybe kind of sensible, but then like, okay, so let's say you have Newton, right?

    Who, whose theory, um, was the predominant one for like 300 years, right? Until Einstein. And, um, like what exactly would be the s like murder? Someone who prohibits him from printing it. Like what exactly, you know, like, I'm slightly struggling to think of what exactly his example really is. Like, I mean, like with revolutionaries, okay, one thing, but like, for example, this example of Newton or Kepler seems slightly weird to me.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. And, and I don't know, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: but do you, uh, so do you think, uh, so this is a question I mentioned briefly earlier, but didn't really properly ask. Do you think the chief investigator is asking? Uh, do you think he's, he's being [00:44:00] curious or do you think he's just toying with Oscar Nikko or wants to find something out?

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I don't think he's curious. I think he has a very good understanding of what's happened. This is my perception, but who knows. But the way I write it is that he just, he wants a confession or a accidental confession of some sort. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, in a way is, it, is the kind of thing right where you, he, he wants him almost to admit to all.

    Harmless steps before, right. To say like, yeah, okay, cool. So you, you think like sometimes it can be justified to kill what's next? It's like, yeah, maybe sometimes like, okay, so you also think, you know, and then you get close and closer and more 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: specific. Yeah. And also this kind of like trick question when he was like, so when you did go to her, um, couple of days before her death and you walked up the stairs, did you see the painters?

    Uh, yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, exactly. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: And the painters [00:45:00] went there a couple of days before. So it seems like he's certainly trying to trick him. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And then kin also says like, Hey, what are you doing? Like, how is he supposed to see them? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But, uh, actually one question here, so I can't remember this exactly, but he, but Nikko then says like, he has the thing where he goes like, aha, I got, I get what he's doing right?

    Like, and then he says something like. No, I had to push past the soldiers who were moving out the furniture and that kind of stuff. Mm-hmm. I can't remember, was that actually the case or did he make something 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: up? I was, I was wondering as well. I, I don't know. It 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: seems vaguely correct, but it also seemed a bit much than it seemed like, more than I could remember.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. I couldn't remember this, but it might have been just like, we would have to go back. Um, might have been like a 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: damn what I thought you remember. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: No, I didn't 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: because I, I was really wondering like, ah, is he maybe trying to, you know, it's like, okay, so he doesn't fall into the [00:46:00] traps saying, oh yeah, the, the people were there, whatever.

    He also, I mean, then let's say it didn't happen with the soldiers and he's making up too much, you know, you like the more detailed, the more details you make up, the more specific it's, and convincing it sounds, right. Mm-hmm. If he said like, oh yeah, I, I went up the stairs, and it's like, okay. Uh, that doesn't really sound, but if you go like, oh yeah, I went up the stairs and whatever the, the sun came in through that window, then it suddenly seems not plausible that that's actually what happened.

    Mm-hmm. And then I was wondering whether he was trying to do that and made up too much detail, um, that wasn't actually true, and that they might actually get him afterwards and said like, by the way, those soldiers weren't there, or something like that. But I just, I can't remember whether the soldiers were there or not.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. But how does this can't really be? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Well, maybe they knew time when he was there. Right. So the, the, the lady had appointments and that kinda stuff. So maybe through other stuff that could reconstruct, like when Ra Nikko, or he even said like, when he was there, right. Roughly at the time, I think. [00:47:00] Um, yeah.

    So maybe they were like, something like, oh no, the, there were soldiers moving in, but that was like in the morning or something. Like, you're, you're talking shit. You know, the whole thing. We're going like, okay, you lied there, so what else are you lying about? And then 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Getting him that way. Mm-hmm.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I dunno. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: We'll see. So what are they gonna discuss in the next part is, was this your question or did you have another one? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, first I wanted, uh, Kai, it's, I mean, it's going there. So the first question, uh, another question I had was, who's the, what was the tale? Who, the guy who says you are the killer?

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: So I'm actually sure where that was. Whether this person exists or whatever, was some his own. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Oh, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: really? Okay. Um, like, I don't know, it seemed like, uh, some, uh, hallucination and, but, but I don't know. It's probably is a true person, but my first thought [00:48:00] was like, is this just, you know, like, um, hallucination?

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I mean, I took, so I didn't think about that. I took him more like the second guy, is that I was slightly confused. I thought that was still a dream. I missed that one sentence where it said he woke up. Oh. Um, but so I had to read the last like page again, but no. So I took that guy to be real person, but then there was one thing that I found kind of weird, which is, sorry.

    Right. So, okay. The story, at least we're told is that some guy seems to have been a witness to something or at least thinks that he's the murderer. And I think he just didn't know the name, right. Um, he just wanted to con to confirm like, okay, that name belongs to the face that I saw there. That's kind of what I took from that.

    But then if I've actually saw someone beating two old ladies with an ax, so if I remember correctly, then you know, the guy just calmly walks away and then as OV walks behind him and says like. You know, [00:49:00]what, what are you doing? And then the guy says, oh yeah, you're the killer. Like completely nonchalant.

    Like if I knew someone had murdered two people just two days ago, or not two, but like five days ago, whatever, I'd be slightly more hesitant that he might commit further violence in this case on me to hide another witness. But I can't remember whether they did this in the middle of the road or where there were lots of people around.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I think it was like an open public, but also this is one, one reason, like this whole scene seemed a bit like surreal. And this is why I thought it might actually be just hallucination. Um, because it was this kind of like weird situation where this person kind of like comes, wants to find him, and then as soon as he sees him, he turns around and walks away and then just pretend Mr.

    Calling coffee isn't following him. He should also go to the police, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: right? If he thinks he knows what the murder is. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. But maybe once. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, I don't know. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Something from him. [00:50:00] Maybe he's gonna blackmail him. Who knows? Yeah, I 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: dunno. Yeah, we, yeah, I mean, so if he actually thought, lets Nik cause the murder, wouldn't you go to the police and then have a policeman come with you or have Konik off order to the police station, I guess is that way around?

    Probably. I mean, I dunno how the law and police work back then, right? It's 150 years ago, but they're not gonna have like smooth lineups with lots of people who look similar and all that kind of stuff, right? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But yeah, but So you think the person's not real? What's your prediction? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I think it probably is real, but I don't know.

    At, at first I thought he wasn't real and that it was just like a feverish, schizophrenic episode, you know? But, um, seeing in like the context of the whole book, I think he probably is real. But, um, not sure yet what, yeah. What, what his rule is. [00:51:00] 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. So who could it have been? I mean, so, okay, so, uh, Nikko was there and then they, so when he murdered the, so it could have been someone who came up and saw him actually beat and then he just ran away afraid or whatever, or to get people, I don't know, someone who we haven't heard of yet.

    It, there were of course these two people who were outside the door. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. It could have also been somebody at the market when he first hears did, um, Liza is going somewhere. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Nah, that's too vague, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: right? Pardon? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, he just walked by, right? He was just, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah. But just given that he's like a tradesman or like sales tradesman, I think, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, yeah.

    So what I think more might be the case is that he was on the market, maybe, I dunno whether the market was every day, but that he was like. Basically he's someone who saw us going, a cuff come out, someone who was standing outside, saw like the few people run in [00:52:00] and then one guy come out again. Mm. My my assumption is kind of that he didn't actually, you know, he didn't see us going off committed crime.

    He didn't anything like that, but he just saw something like that would be my guess. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, yeah. Anyway. Okay. So I think I can make one prediction that's fairly safe and that I already made last time, which is that Sonya or Eska is gonna make more of an appearance. She already did in this chapter when she invited.

    Oh yeah. I forgot to say that. US Konik cough's gonna go to a funeral. Uh, so that's nice. So that's gonna be some sort of larger part. At least a chapter I imagine. I mean, God, I have no idea though who this last guy is who appeared like why that guy's there seems a bit random to me. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I think that he probably had some.

    So this is my wild prediction. Okay. That by killing this old lady, he actually did [00:53:00] something good to other people, maybe including this guy who might have had some depth or whatever. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: You think so? But he was, but he was from the, from the place where his mom and sister were from. Right. So it's a, it's quite a while, like a while away, right.

    From, he's not from St. Petersburg, so why would he have debt with some random porn? I mean, maybe, but some porn broker in St. Petersburg seems a bit random. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Okay. Maybe, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, uh, it's, it's your prediction, but, uh, no, I mean, like, I'm just trying to figure out like, okay, how does that guy, so he's related somehow to, I mean, maybe he tells him something about Lucian, um, something like, oh yeah.

    By the way, that Lucian, he has a huge. Uh, it's 1850 opium problem. Uh, or he is a heavy drink or whatnot. Then he'd look differently. But yeah, maybe something like that where he says like, by the way, Lucin used to be married, beat the shit out of his wife, she died. Something like that. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: [00:54:00] Um, but I'm just trying to Yeah, I think it's, you know, related to the mom and sister plot, but yeah.

    Anyway, so 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: part, no, I think it, it will tie together. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. So part four is gonna have, probably the funeral it's gonna have or something about Lucy and the mother and sister. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I imagine while Nikkos gonna arrive too late, because he's already too late, right. He already slept way too long. So he's probably gonna hear afterwards that guy's gonna say whatever he is gonna say in the first chapter, or there's gonna be something about the.

    The man who accused him of being the killer. Right. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. And some police interaction. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. So I Okay. Do you think he's gonna get arrested? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: No. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. I agree. Because it's, it's only 90 pages. It's too short for that. Um, yeah. So I don't think it's gonna get arrested. I, yeah, I imagine [00:55:00] it's more like there's gonna be some of the non killing plot related stuff, the sister and all this kinda stuff.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And then, yeah, it's just, it's gonna tighten around him. He's gonna have less wiggle room. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Maybe, maybe Kins gonna say like, oh yeah, they have a witness now. Something like that. Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: We will see. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, we'll see. Okay, so that's, that's part three. Next week we're gonna discuss part four. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, exciting.

    I hope whoever's still listening is gonna continue to listen. If not, then, you know, don't, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: or at least it should continue reading. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, exactly. Continue reading. Uh, unless we ruin the book for you, and I'm very sorry,[00:56:00] 

    I feel like I don't need to introduce what we're doing. Again, if people are starting at part four, then they clearly don't care about structure. And if they've already listened to part one, two, and three, then they don't need a reminder. So, oh, shall we summarize again? Uh, what we're doing. So this time I actually wrote it down a bit to be a bit more organized.

    Here's a summary of part four, uh, in one sentence per chapter. Chapter one, uh, I hate that guy's name because I dunno how to say it. Fitley Geoff, SW Geoff, uh, offers us KO's sister, 10,000 orbits to not marry Lucin. Okay, it's kind of two sentences. I used a semicolon here, but it's basically two sentences.

    Konik cough's sister will inherit 3000 orbits from Mafa Petrona for whatever reason. Chapter two, there's a big row between Luin and the Konik. Nikkos. He's basically kicked out. And the engagement to Nikkos [00:57:00]sister seems, uh, blown off in chapter three. Obviously Nikko, uh, sorry. Ian is very excited. He was obviously there the entire time.

    He's very excited about Nikkos sister not getting married to Lucian. So he does what you always do, which means he proposes that they start a publishing company and it's not explicit, but it seems like Kamin at the end might realize that Nikko might be the killer then. But again, nothing, no hard evidence or anything here.

    It's just they basically stare longingly into each other's eyes for a minute. Uh, chapter four, Nikko visits. Sonya is a total dick to her. Tells her he wants to be with her and says he knows who the killer of Liza Vetas. And we realized that Liza Veta is a friend of Sonya or was, I guess chapter five Nikko visits.

    Uh, I didn't read that. I always read pp because I can't remember to spell his name out. But Ly petrovich, uh, Nikko [00:58:00] visits ly. Petrovich and, uh, in the police office. And basically again, Petrovich is aloof the entire time and Oscar Nikko accuses him of suspecting Oscar Nikko of being the killer, and he almost confesses to being the killer, but doesn't.

    Then in chapter six, we get another big plot twist toward the ends. Uh, Nikolai confesses to being the killer of the two women. Uh, then Nikko goes home, has a kind of hallucination or something like that, and realizes that the tradesman who accused Nikko of being the killer was actually present when Nikko visited the murder scene a day after the murder, and that there's probably no actual evidence against Nikko.

    That was a good, concise summary, right? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I know it was a very good summary. I wonder what a, I think this tradesman is interesting because in the chapter and part before, so part. Three. I definitely felt like he would've been [00:59:00] in hallucination, but now it felt like maybe less so. Although at some point, um, Nikko even himself says that he might have fantasized.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. The whole, the whole question of what's real, what's a dream? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Came back quite a bit. This, there was quite, and almost every chapter there was a discussion of ghosts. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But. It seemed to me that in this case, oh, sorry, I forgot to say mention one important thing, uh, that I didn't write down, which is when Konik off visits Sonna is a to dick, to her, et cetera, uh, and says that, you know, he knows who the killer is that Fit.

    Geoff, for some reason was in a room next door that no one knows exists and was listening the entire time. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So that's a crucial piece of information. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I think, I dunno, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: um, I think the reason I think this part was quite interesting was different to the one before. It had a [01:00:00] lot of, um, there was quite a lot going on plot-wise.

    Um, so I think there was like a couple of twists and things that happened and, and a lot of people also. And um, yeah, so it was plot heavy in a sense. However, there was less, I think the part before was very much about like. You know, like the ethical considerations of whether it's ever okay to commit a crime, et cetera, blah, blah, blah.

    But this one was more focused on the plot. It, it felt to me, rather than any deep ethical questions. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Right. Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Which is, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: well, in a way, but I actually FI have to admit, I, I found this one the least interesting part. Um, I think because basically the whole plot with the system marrying Lucien to me is it's kind of boring.

    And, um, that was like, you know, the first half of this thing was, again, just that thing. [01:01:00] So in a way I like, in a way a lot happened, but I also, I don't know, there's a lot of talking in this one again. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Also think at the end when he's talking to the chief investigators in the police office, it's just like.

    It's monologue followed by dialogue, followed by monologue. It's a, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, it's basically a play. This part. Yeah. This could be a play, I think almost without, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, a few things. Okay. So like, when I was only half hours and we can look at each other and Amazon, we might realize that it's a killer. So, you know, maybe you could do that on stage quite as well.

    But pretty much everything here is just dialogue or monologue. Yeah, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah. The, um, yeah. Where shall we start? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, as I said, uh, before we start recording, I don't actually have a lot of points this time. Um, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: which I think is because it's, sorry, sorry to interrupt you, but I, but I think the reason why you don't have a lot of points is because it's, it was a bit on a more [01:02:00] superficial Devon, a sense it was a lot happening.

    There was a lot happening plot wise. Not, not anything you, you or one needs or can discuss in detail. I feel it wasn't, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: it's also the plot that did happen right now, I'm not particularly interested in, in a way, like the whole, I mean, so I mean there's interesting things like, like, you know, you, we did learn lots of new stuff about Lucent, for example, and that he's, uh, I mean this is a general point I wrote.

    This is one of the few points I wrote down is like, Antonio, would you like to spend time with any of the characters in this book? Just anyone? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Um, Sonya seems like a nice person, but Yeah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: exactly. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: She's a bit like, don't, uh, she's not the most critical thinker or is matters person. This is actually maybe a good thing to talk about because, um, this whole scene when he comes to visit Sonya and basically proposes.

    To spend their lives together. It wasn't a direct proposal for [01:03:00] marriage. Yeah. But it came close. And she seems to have, which is also, you know, must be understood in the context of the time she felt very guilty for being a prostitute and, um, that she's a sinner, et cetera, as a religious 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: person. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. She's very religious.

    Um, obviously during that time, religion played a different role than it does now. Um, she also doesn't seem, yeah, she's not, she basically believes that she's gonna end up in hell. Um, and that she. Is sinning in, has brought shame and that it's all her fault. From an outsider's perspective, you think like poor political girl, uh, she's not a political girl, but she's 18, but poor girl.

    Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But pretty much, yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Um, she's driven into prostitution. Definitely wasn't her choice. It's definitely not what she enjoys. Eminent was also kicked out of the family home because she's sinner. But like none of this was her fault that she obviously doesn't have any other way. At least she doesn't know of any other way to, to make [01:04:00] money.

    She didn't learn to treat trade other than prostitution, obviously. But so, um, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: so I think, I don't think you learn that as a trade. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Well, I, I, I don't know. I 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: don't think you could just trade school 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: well, but it's more like a learning on the street. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Learning by doing. Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. But, but, so I think she's like a very kind character.

    She doesn't have a lot of, of depth to her. But she definitely seems like, I mean, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: she almost can't have a lot of depth to her, right? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: She's so desperate. Just trying to, I mean, she's trying to, I mean, and also feel like some of the stuff, I mean, this is basically the part that where Konik off is again, just being incredibly obnoxious.

    Uh, when he says like, oh, you are, you know, when, why didn't you kill yourself? And well, what, but, well, your siblings will do the same that you are doing all that kinda stuff, right? Like, she, she pretends that that won't happen. But it's also [01:05:00] just, I mean, there's also a question like how much she says it won't happen, how much she actually believes it won't happen if she were to not support them.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. I, I kind of seem interesting as well, but I think what he was, was, what his agenda was, was to understand whether these are thoughts she has herself, because she is kind of agreeing with him. She's like, oh no, no, that mustn't happened. But in a way. That makes him assume that these are thoughts she has herself as, for example, killing herself.

    She, she didn't like react, strongly disagree with him, but she was kind of like, yeah, but you know, kind of like, yes, I've, I've had this thought before thinking about it. However, came to the, I think 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: even he just recognized it and I don't even know whether she said it, but yeah, she, he at least thinks that she had these thoughts before.

    Yeah, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah, yeah. I know she doesn't explicitly say it, but this is how he perceives it. So yes, it is [01:06:00] obnoxious, but it was, it is a very interesting strategy to figure out whether somebody has had certain thoughts. I don't know what I would, practically, I wouldn't, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I know. Why is that such an important thing to know?

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I think mean, I don't think he 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: even wanted to find out rather Right. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: No, I think he did was 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: me just harassing her the entire time. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: No, I really miss, like understood differently. I think that he's falling in love with her and he wants to rescue her. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. But why do you, I mean, I, I maybe he was nervous about the whole proposing in a really weird way.

    Uh, but I can't remember exactly the details that anymore. But like there are some uncomfortable truth, a lot of uncomfortable truths in her life, and you don't need to highlight each and one of them in front of her and make her feel bad about every one of them. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, and I really, yeah, [01:07:00] and obviously I completely agree and I don't think though this was a great way to go about it.

    However, I still believe that he, his intention was different and I think that his intention was not to make her feel bad about herself, but to. First of all, as he said, find out what what she was thinking. And then also I think at some point I was waiting for this, that he would tell her, well, I know these are your thoughts, but they're bullshit.

    I'm waiting for, I think this is not the end of it. There is something is gonna come. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Well, he kind of already did that. Right? He did tell her that. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. But for 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: example, when you said like, well, your sister's gonna end up the same way you will. And she's like, no, it won't. It's like, yeah, will she will. So, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Hmm.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. But I, I don't know. I feel, I think with Las Nikko, you never quite know what he's thinking and he doesn't either. True. So that whole scene for me was just a bit, I think I was slightly annoyed when I read that scene because it just [01:08:00] seemed a bit ar also specifically going off listening to the whole thing, which I just thought that was very poorly done.

    Just in, in writing terms. Just like, oh yeah, there's this room that no one knows about and he's listening the entire term, I dunno, seemed a bit random. Like the whole, like, okay, so maybe he wants, I mean, sure. Uh, maybe he wants to find out what she's thinking, this kinda stuff, but he's also, um, then the whole thing like, oh yeah, I'll tell you who killed Liz Avita and that kinda stuff.

    Like what? I just, uh, yeah. I just don't understand any of what he's trying to do. It just seems, uh, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I think, so the way I read this is that he, if he really wants to spend his life with her or marry her, whatever, it appears to me maybe that he would want to be honest, um, and be clear, like mm-hmm. Kinda like start a relationship in somewhat [01:09:00] kind of like blank slate.

    Let's 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: start this relationship on a good part. I killed your friend. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Ah, no, but I think. That maybe that was the intention because he seems to be somewhat honest to his house, so he doesn't, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: so I guess also, so one thing I just overlooked is that he didn't know that the two that, that Sonja and Lisa Batan knew Israel, he didn't know that that was only revealed in the chapter.

    So I guess maybe that was something he didn't plan on doing. That's fair enough. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Okay. But then she, when after he's left, she's completely confused and doesn't know, doesn't understand why he knows who had killed Veta. And then I was like, oh, wouldn't, isn't that the part where normal person would be a bit suspicious, but maybe not.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. But he helped us so much, right? Yeah. I mean, even if he, uh, was, uh, not very nice to her in this entire chapter so far, he's basically paid the [01:10:00] funeral for her father and seemed like a very helpful guy. Right? So. You don't immediately go like, oh yeah, he probably killed it. That's why, you know? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm.

    Mm. Yeah. Maybe you're right. What is still a mystery is what the person whose name so difficult to pronounce

    what he wants, what his attorney is. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Just an 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: SS Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I, I always write these people down just by their first letter, which is annoying about Nikko. So I call Kin Raz with a Z, but yeah, it's too, too, too many, too long names. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Um, yeah. So what is, what does he want, because, so there is obviously, so his wife died and there are some rumors.

    Sorry, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: can you, uh, do you remember that plot line? Because the whole thing about that and his wife and all that stuff, I think that's in the letter that's gonna across mom rights in the beginning. I think that's where it's mentioned, [01:11:00] but I basically just. I didn't rem even try to remember so that, because it didn't seem that interesting to me.

    So I don't really know, I don't remember exactly what was going on in that plot line. Like also, how does Oscar, Oscar Konik off's sister relate to them? Did she, and I remember like the, and the letter that this person kept reading to the entire village. I just don't remember the, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: no. So I think that she was a maid in their household and then guy, he, I think he hit on her basically and proposed, have some like indecent relationship and then she refused.

    But was, I think it's, it was in a bit of a difficult situation because she obviously rejected him, but then. Um, his wife found out, and at the beginning the wife thought that something had [01:12:00] happened or that actually the sister had, has hit on, on him or initiated that thing. But then the wife realized that this was not true, um, and apologized to her and then the wife died, and as in rumors that he had beaten her, which are not confirmed.

    So we don't know, but he quick, shortly after the wife's death, he's going to send Petersburg, which is now, and he's now looking for the sister and. He seems to be interested in her romantically or sexually? I don't know, but it's a bit, a bit confusing because he offers her via a scholarly coffee. He offers her the money so that she doesn't, um, she doesn't get married to loosen, but we don't know, like it seems a lot of money for [01:13:00]like, what, what is, what does he already want?

    And then also why is he so he 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: doesn't already have money, right? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Pardon? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Because he's not getting any of, so is, if I remember correctly, there's Malfa Pet, his wife had a lot of money. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, but she's giving it to her children Right. Or something. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So he's not actually getting the money. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So he's in theory not rich to give her, to give Nikkos sister this money.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Exactly. So yeah, it seems a bit weird, but. And I think he, now that he's listened to the whole conversation between Sonya and Nikko, he's probably trying one on one together and know Sarah Nikko is the murderer. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So does he even know about the, there was a murder or is this whole murder thing kind of new to him when he's listening to them?

    I'm not, I mean, there's of course the question of like, why is he even listen? Like it's very clear that he was there to listen to Sonya. So God knows maybe he was sent by someone to listen to it. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: [01:14:00] Something. Well, he followed her, so, so like the, in the part before Sonya walks home and she doesn't realize that a man is following her, and then, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: okay.

    Neither did I. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: And then, and we don't really know who this man is, but it's obviously him. Ah, okay. So, and I think maybe, you know, he mentions at some point, well, he's got a new bride. Um, so he's gonna remarry soon, and I think maybe Oh, right. He thinks that he's gonna marry Sonya. I don't know. Saw like a, a, a pretty girl wasn't like, Hmm.

    She would, she would make a good one. I don't know. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: You mean he's doing the, the whole loosen thing, but, Ooh, here's a pretty and very poor and vulnerable person. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Yeah. I, I don't know. Who knows? Like, um, it's just my assumption, but it is definitely not the whole story because he is, has some interest in sk her sister.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: 'cause he, yeah, this, I don't know. It [01:15:00] seems like, uh, if you, I mean, he explicitly said like, right, like, I have no interest in her. It'd be weird to have interest in her. And until you just drank an empty glass, there was nothing in this, was it? Okay. It looked like you were just drinking from an empty glass.

    Um, sorry, the, I forgot what I was saying. Um, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: you think that he doesn't have any interest in, in the system? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Oh yeah. So yeah, if he, I mean, sure, maybe he's lying or whatever, but it would be a bit random to just appear, say, Hey, I'll give him money to not marry that guy. I'm not interested in her. And then he's somehow is interested in her.

    I think he might just have something against Lucy rather than anything else. Um, I dunno. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I dunno, he's, he's the character I probably understand the least, I think because I basically just blanked out that plot line, uh, almost entirely until, until now when it became unavoidable. Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: [01:16:00] Yeah. But he has some agenda because he also, it seems like he left for St.

    P St. Petersburg very quickly, so it seems like there was something that triggered his, um, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah, I mean, basically, I mean, that, that's the whole criticism, right? That he. Supposedly, maybe he didn't kill his wife, but at least had something to do with the death. And then, you know, instead of mourning or whatever, a day later or two days later, he's in St.

    Petersburg offering now gonna look off money so his sister doesn't get married. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, yeah, he, he definitely has some sort of agenda. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, maybe multiple, but I don't, do we know what, I don't think we know what it is right now. Right. No, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: but I, I wonder whether he is gonna use his new knowledge to blackmail somebody.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, that's what I'm wondering too. But in a way that makes sense. But that doesn't solve the problem of where he gets his money because he told Nik off he get the money before he got this information, so. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: [01:17:00] Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Um, um, well, the second question is, does he actually have the money? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. There's a lot of questions here.

    There's also like, right now, I'm just assuming that, so obviously, so Lucian seems outta the picture right now. We'll see whether he makes a return, but right now he's outta the picture. So right now, or when that scene happened and they kicked him out, I thought, ah, okay, I see what they're doing. They're gonna take the money from sort of ov off whatever his name is and say like, oh yeah, okay, we're, we're in on the, you know, give us the 10,000 rule, but we're not marrying him even though it's kind of coincidental.

    So first off, that's kind of where the story's going, right? They're just, although I guess he never specified why she shouldn't get married to Lucin. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, but he doesn't, yeah. Like whatever his agenda is, it doesn't seem like it's a 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: positive, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: positive one or like altruistic one. Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: [01:18:00] Yeah. I mean, he's seen, I mean, everyone's afraid of him also, right?

    It wasn't, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah. Yeah. Like, um, sister's definitely afraid and sister, mother, and like, yeah. Seems like it. One part that was interesting, jumping ahead a bit, was this scene in, with the chief investigators, the first chief investigator kind of like talks to him and is like a monologue of how he's gonna catch the murder, but just like not actually, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: uh, just shall we just quickly just talk about loose interest for a second before we get there?

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, I'm not sure there's like that much I have to say. I just thought, it seems to me like right now, he might be outta the picture for the rest of the book. I don't know, but he seemed like, uh, like you do wonder why on earth his sister, KO's sister wanted to marry him. 'cause as soon as he starts talking there, I mean, of course he's always in hostile environments there, but he seems to be so calculating about the whole thing.

    And wait, I wrote, there was [01:19:00] like one quote about it, which made him sound borderline psychopathic at least. Yeah. So, uh, so he'd just been kicked out, right? I said, so this is the beginning of part of chapter three of part four. The main point was that until the very last moment, such an outcome was the last thing he'd have expected.

    He'd blessed it all the way to the end, never even recognizing the possibility that two penniless and defenseless women could escape from under his thumb. I thought that's, uh, a nice way of phrasing it. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Um, well, I guess and 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: the whole, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: they had never really spent a lot of time with each other before.

    Right. The sister and Lucy doesn't seem like 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: it. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: So I think on her part it was Mindy about the money and she thought. That he was decent enough to be married to, but then, you know, like it's a relationship. He's harmless enough or whatever. Yeah. I, I, well, that's how I understood it. She, she thought, well, [01:20:00] it would like, it would be bearable, but she would be safe and have enough money to live a comfortable life.

    Yeah. I 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: mean, in a way, of course, the, like, one thing that just struck me is how calculating it was. So, I mean, it's clear from the beginning, right? Not from the beginning, but that from, as soon as assistant's mother arrived, Saint Petersburg, he kept not meeting them like twice or something. Right? He was like, oh, yeah, I have this important business thing.

    And even here he was like, you know, I have to leave now for my important business stuff. So it's clear that, you know, that's mainly what he's about. But then there was this paragraph, I think in part three, just page or two later, where he. Almost like outlined his whole dream about like, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Hmm, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: you know, and I can go to St.

    Petersburg and I can, I can, you know, rise up the social ladder and like, this poor pretty girl will help me do this and blah, blah, blah. And yeah, I mean, in some sense, of course she's not doing anything much different in a way, um, and that she's saying, oh yeah, maybe I don't like him or [01:21:00] whatever. But he's, he's fine enough and I wouldn't have to worry about money anymore.

    But I was surprised just at how, just calculated the whole thing was. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Well, obviously didn't turn out the way he had anticipated. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Not yet. Maybe there'll be another plot 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: twist. Yeah, no, he will. I think he will come back because like in the end he says something like, oh, well, okay, I have to sort this out tomorrow.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. And I wonder also him coming down basically at the same time as, ah, I wonder, do they know each other? I don't know. Um, yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I feel like the, the two of them might have some sort of scene together at some point. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Just because they both came down at the same time basically and have more or less the same interest.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Or, or posing interest in that sense. Yeah. We'll see, I just, yeah, I just wanted to now briefly just mention that chapter. So, yeah. Do you wanna talk about Phi Petrovich? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. So there's like, [01:22:00] the first, at the beginning it's is him telling Nikal how he will catch the murderer by not doing anything and by not doing anything, the murderer, almost like a, a fly.

    Flying to the lights will just kind of like out themselves in, in some, some way. Um, and by talking like this, he makes Nikko think that he knows and that he's got some evidence that Skolnik cough is the murderer, and then they have to like turns into a discussion, whatever. And then mla, I think his name is, comes in Yeah.

    Unexpected unexpectedly. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: and I 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: think it was unexpected also for 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: For Petro, right? Yeah, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah. Mla. And he, although it's quite clear to obviously the reader, but, but also I think it seemed clear to other people that he's [01:23:00] innocent. He admits to having murdered the women. And an 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: max even said, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: and he also, um, and it seems like, I mean, it's a very short scene, but it seems, seems also that Olai himself.

    Thinks, um, he's done or believes in it. So this alludes to him having been, I don't know, maybe like, I don't know what sort of interrogation methods they were using, but 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah, I mean that's, that's what I think Nikko thinks, right? Yeah. Basically just, or I think even says that to p Petto, which like, oh, you just put him under so much pressure.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Yeah. So, but, but I think this is interesting in a sense that there's like now somebody like admitting to the murder, which as Gar Con committed, and I wonder, like, we don't really know what he thinks, but like. [01:24:00] I think this might still be a very important scene where he sees in front of his eyes an innocent man admitting to something that he's done himself and having probably he will have to face the consequences for a sal section unless something changes.

    But if that's kind of like the status quo, Ola will probably be executed or I don't know. Um, and I wonder yeah, how this changes the Yeah. The feeling of guilt, responsibility, et cetera. So how, how, how this will affect the colon curves next actions. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. In a way, this was almost the scene I've been waiting for since the murder happened because I felt like part of the punishment is going to be seeing someone else at the very least accused or have a reputation ruined or maybe even tried and found guilty, whatever for the crime.

    I've basically been waiting for this to happen. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Oh, really? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So Scott Nikko has to see like someone else take his own. The, the consequences of his own [01:25:00] actions. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, and I think actually that that's, I mean this is definitely gonna be a part, I think because of one small detail in what Mola said, because I've already forgotten again who Mola was.

    Was he one of the two people who went up? Did, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: did it depend on who was painter? Like they were refurbishing? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I was want the painters. Okay. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But the one thing, but the crucial dito here is that he said, and I think this is gonna be why this is gonna be a major part in the next until the end, because he's, Nikolai said, I did on my own this whatever his friend was, or the other guy had nothing to do with it.

    This part of like, him actively shielding another person from this. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And I wonder whether, um, US Nikko is gonna look at that and go like, oh man, look, he's trying to like. Protect almost his friend or something. Yeah. From the consequences of this. Whereas I'm here just letting this happen to someone who's completely innocent.[01:26:00] 

    Yeah. So I, I think this is basically what part five's gonna be, would be my guess. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Possible. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But I find interesting that, I mean part. Okay. Here's a, here's a a before I forget this very important question. Do you think maybe Koola did commit the murder and Konik Koff was hallucinating the entire time?

    Because he's clearly off his mind for the entire book. Uh, do you think maybe Konik Koff didn't actually commit the murder? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: The interesting question. Um, almost like split personality. Um. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Not even split, he just like completely off 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: the line. Yeah. Just like a complete, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: like he heard about this thing and then just made up all this stuff around it.

    Yeah, because like his, you know, that's his seventh beginning, his escape was kind of miraculous. It was complete dumb luck that he managed to get away with it. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Whereas Koi getting away with it would be a lot less, um, miraculous. That would make a lot more sense. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Um, I [01:27:00] still don't think so. It would be an interesting picture, right?

    Um, uh, no, but I don't think so. What is more, I think, and we touched upon this a bit earlier, it was, um, this tradesman, I don't know, like is he real? Is he not real? Um, it was quite interesting this last scene of him entering the flat and also being a bit weird, but that was 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: clearly hallucination, right.

    Because he said like he appeared out of the ground. Something like that was 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: the thing. Yeah. I don't know. Like I don't, yeah, I find it weird. Yeah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: so the way I interpreted this, so at first I thought like, okay, this is just some really weird scene. But then I thought like, okay, what they're basically trying, what is basically trying to do is, uh, Nikko.

    So he just, wait, lemme see. I mean, I can't remember all the details, but he just talked to per Petrovic about all of this stuff right about, and had said like, oh yeah, look, you, you even went up to this flat and all this stuff, [01:28:00] right? Like you went up to the flat, blah, blah, blah. And then I think Nikko, just by like going over in his memory, all those things realized like, oh wait, that guy was there.

    Like, I remember actually when I went there the second time, he was actually there. And I think that's all that's actually trying to do is that Oscar Nikko just kind of realized like, wait a minute. There actually is no evidence. Even the guy who seemed to be like a, a prime witness to the murder. He actually only saw like the weird stuff that he did a, that OV did afterwards.

    There is actually no one who saw him do anything. So I think that's all that, or I think that's all that do osteo iss trying to do with it. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. But then do you think that this trades man is, um, or her hallucination, if it is in hallucination, would be almost like his conscious or his like 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I see, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah, the guilt, just eating him up or like, I don't know, like always coming back and, and being very [01:29:00] present and telling him, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: no, I don't think so, or, Hmm.

    I mean this is something we talked about last time where I said like, he never, I think we talked about the murder please, Vita. Mm-hmm. Where Nikko in the last part mentioned her for the first time and we're like, oh yeah, I'm not feeling any guilt about murdering her. So maybe the tradesman is a kind of sign that Nikko is starting to feel guilt now.

    But the tradesman only appeared in part three. Right. So in a way, well then again, OV didn't feel any guilt before the guy came, so yeah, maybe. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. But we also don't really know this because we don't really know what he thinks. And also it could be just, um, suppressed feeling of guilt. No. You know, the symptoms.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I wonder about that. So this is something I find really tricky in terms of just interpreting the writing. Um, because in a way we learn a lot about oscon, ovs inner thoughts or as opposed to outer thoughts. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, we learn [01:30:00] a lot about his thoughts. Um, and uh, a lot of it is done through his actions, right.

    Where we have to infer his thoughts. And a lot of it's also done directly where he just says or thinks something and the thoughts are written out and that kind of stuff. Right. But I don't know whether his erratic behavior in the beginning, I mean, this is something I think we talked about last time also, whether his erratic behavior is a sign of his guilt or just of his fear of getting caught.

    I think my tendency would be to say he's just afraid of getting caught and doesn't feel any guilt, because otherwise he would've at least thought about Liza Veta. And, uh, if Lorna, whatever his name was, her name was, um, I think he would've, his, I feel like if he had been feeling guilt, he would've actually thought about them more explicitly, and that would've been mentioned in the book.

    Uh, but I don't know. It kind of could be either. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Well, the, the problem is with like, we don't, [01:31:00] maybe we do know his thoughts, but we definitely don't really know his feelings, do we? So, z he. We know what he thinks about sometimes we also don't always know what he thinks about, but sometimes we have like inner kind of like dialogues, mono, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, uh, certain, I'm not entirely sure how we differentiate feelings and emotions and all that kind of stuff, but we do at least sometimes hear that he's like agitated and that kind stuff, right, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Or that he's nervous or true. So, yeah. But in a way it, he is still, even though it is interesting how we, it, it seems like he's described quite a lot, um, about his thoughts and all this kind of stuff, but in a way also not in a way we still don't really know what he's thinking. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: It comes and goes also, like sometimes, sometimes he's talking to somebody and then we, we hear his thoughts along the lines of, oh, why did I say this?

    And, oh, why did I say this in like, such a [01:32:00] shrieky voice, but in sometimes the dialogue. And you don't know what he's thinking at all, and all of a sudden he says something throws something in that comes out of the blue. So it's, it's not constant in, in that sense, I think. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, I keep wondering whether that's intentional or whether it's just like it's hard to write a novel.

    Like I don't, I don't know whether this is intentional. What else he have key is, because in a way it fits also the thing, right? Of him just being very erratic the entire time. It's, it's precisely not the case that we always know about his emotions or something like that, because that in a way wouldn't fit us.

    Knik of a guy who. It is just erratic, almost the entire book. So in a way, just like having his, uh, having like a, a commentary on his emotional state throughout the book would almost be weird. Um, it, it felt like it would be too consistent almost, but I dunno whether that's intentional or not. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yes. It's an interesting point.

    Um, I imagine that [01:33:00] Doki was aware of this. I almost, I was just, um, obviously only my gut feeling here, but it seems almost like he's using it as a tool, so he's like switching perspective and Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. But sometimes it seems to me it doesn't seem, there was one thing where he just switched perspective and I was like, I don't think this is intent.

    Like, I can't remember where it was, but it wasn't this part where, yeah, sometimes his, his whose perspectives he is taking to me sometimes seems also not entirely. The way he's switching it doesn't always seem entirely consistent. So I, I, yeah, I don't know. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: But I think the switching perspective, you changed the focus, right?

    Because you can, if you see the scene from somebody else's perspective, obviously the focus is also different. So it seems to me like that's what he's trying to do. And uh, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah. Yeah, it just seems to me he could have, uh, [01:34:00] sometimes maybe it jumps a bit too quickly. Maybe it would've been fine had they just like had a, not just like, next line, you change perspective, but you put like an entire blank line in between or something.

    Maybe like that would've helped me. But sometimes I felt like the switch but in perspective was kind of sudden and not particularly, uh, elegantly mag True. Then again, that's not the kind of, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: um, I wondered. Uh, so it makes it definitely more diff difficult is the wrong word, but Yeah. In a sense, more difficult to read.

    Because you have to pay so much more attention because if you miss one sentence where the perspective and et cetera changes, then you completely lost, um, track. So however, I wonder whether this I switching perspective with a blank line, isn't that more like modern writing? So I don't feel like this, yeah, I don't know.

    Would've felt weird. Um, I don't know. Like I can't really think of any [01:35:00] novel or written piece from that time that would do this as seem to me. Seems. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like more, I like how 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: you're pretending, like you've read a lot of books from 1850. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, definitely pretending. Well, you don't have any 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: evidence.

    All books I've read, I can't think of anyone. No, I haven't read many books from the time, so I dunno either. And it's not something I paid too much. Here's the thing, right? I think if it's well done, it's something you don't even notice if, if the writer is clearly in control of the perspective through which they're presenting, whatever.

    Mm-hmm. Then it's not something you really notice that much, unless that's the point. But yeah, and, and here it just sometimes felt like, are you reading? Okay, we're reading. I was going off thought. And suddenly they're like, from long one end to the next. You're suddenly now in third per perspective, which just seemed a bit, a bit of a jump sometimes.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: But I think this is also, do you remember like last summer, the time before I mentioned it, I think sometimes it reads like a play. Um, and as you mentioned that this. Part, definitely recycle player. And I [01:36:00] think one of the reasons is to switch of perspective, because sometimes you have like this inner monologue by Konik off and then he almost like leaves the scene, leaves the stage, and then there's somebody else talking to somebody else.

    And I think I get this sense sometimes, and this is very much like in a play, right? You can have, like, you can hear somebody having a, an inner monologue and then they leave and then it's somebody's else's perspective. And I think yeah, wonder whether, do we know whether he's written any plays or the Yeah.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, at least he's not famous for them. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: If he has, I mean he's famous for his last, the big novels he wrote in the next second half of his life. But I dunno, but I dunno also, like, again, I'm not. I just haven't read enough literature from the time to be able to just really say that. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, yeah. I dunno.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Okay. [01:37:00] We'll leave that one open. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I mean, again, in a way it does, if you want a book where perspec where you have this, it's almost like the, the, the, the narrative choice is a bit erratic too. Um, in that sense. And I think again, if, if you want, this would probably be the book to do that, um, to, because you have this narrator who's completely erratic, but uh, you can also, yeah.

    I'm not sure how much we're excusing doky for not paying super close attention to perspective. I don't know. I mean also, you know, this was, you know, when he wrote this, like he couldn't just like change it in word quickly, right? You have to like type up the entire thing again. Like Yeah. He just was like, ah, whatever it will do.

    It's like, ah, it's all typed out now. Uh, yeah, fine. Let's just keep it. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, no, the editing was definitely something different back then. I imagine 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: they didn't even go out, they didn't have typewriters. [01:38:00] There you go. Right. So, uh, yeah, well I don't, I dunno, when was the typewriter invented? Okay, I'm gonna do some investigative journalism right now and go to, I put typewriter into Google and see when it was invented.

    'cause this is precisely the kind of quality that this podcast offers. The first commercial typewriter were introduced in 1874, so that's 20 years after this novel. There you go. So he was writing this by hand probably 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: explains everything. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yep. Yeah, I mean, you, you're not gonna write an entire part again just because the perspective is slightly off.

    Anyway, do we have anything more to say about the actual novel rather than mm-hmm. Whatever it is we've been doing for the last five minutes. Um, maybe I'll ask them something. Uh, I already asked this kind of last time, but now we have a second scene with p Petro. So now do you think, same question asked last time.

    Do you think he's toying [01:39:00] with us or do you think he's maybe just very aloof? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: So my sense was for sure that he knew what had happened, but then now, but he has some agenda for why he wants to let Koko Yeah, remain free and. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, I wonder like at some point whether maybe the thing he was saying was just a hundred percent true because he did say these things like, no, no, no, we're just gonna, like, he was, you know, telling us, Nik off, no, no, we're gonna let the murder run around free.

    Almost like a, like a, uh, what's like an oracle? Mm-hmm. When they say something and it's definitely gonna come true. Almost like, no, no, we're gonna let the murder come true knowing that it's probably our Nik off, uh, sorry, we're gonna let him go free and then he's gonna reveal himself, uh, because he can't stand it or something like that.

    I wonder whether he is almost telling me like, yeah, yeah, you're gonna give in, like, I've got you. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I think this is what, like this is how I ended it. Um, but what then [01:40:00] seems to be very interesting is when comes in and admits having Marty, um, the women chief knows that this is not true. Like he even says, so he says something like, oh, these are not your words.

    Like he mumbles something along the lines of 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Did he actually, I can't remember. So I remember, wait, lemme check this, because I remember Nikko thinking that later on, but I didn't remember him actually saying that. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. But then he says, oh, you 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: wait, lemme, yeah, let's just check this. I mean, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah. So he says on page 425.

    So you noticed me telling mic just now that he does when his word, his own words. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Wait, sorry. What is the page where? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: On the page? Page 425. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, I'm on the page. But where 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: at the first, in the first third. He, he, he. So you notice me telling mic just now that those were in his own words. How could I not? He he you wit [01:41:00] you already are nothing escapes.

    You notice such a playful mindset and such a gift will winking our comedy.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I think he might actually asked earlier whether there's one person you I'd like to spend time with or you would like to spend time with. I think if this, this might just be a big act fit and he might actually be a lot of fun and he's just doing his job basically, and winding.

    Um, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: well, I think he knows that Mola is the murderer, but, uh, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean it seems very unlikely. I'm just reading this again now and it's just this, so Mola is, now I'm the killer. Mola repeated after the briefest of pauses. How you, how, who have you killed? Puffy Petro, which seemed quite lost again. Ola. Pause briefly.

    Ano and I killed them. Um, wait, I just called it lon Ivanovich. That makes no sense. [01:42:00] Uh, with an ex I was like a, like a blackout. Yeah. And yeah, anyway, it seems like B Beto, which is really surprised by the whole thing. Uh, he's like, wait, you're not the killer. Why are you saying all this stuff? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Yeah. So I think he knows, and I, I, I think he has assumptions that unquote is the killer.

    So, but we, like, it's weird, but we, we don't know. It might also be that because this whole dialogue discussion we very much perceive from Nikkos position or perspective. So maybe the SEC sense of Exactly. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: This could just be like that. We think that the chief investigator knows just because it's from the perspective of OV is obviously like super on high alert and sea coasts everywhere.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That's actually one thing I was thinking about, um, when I was reading that was the whole thing about [01:43:00] how your, uh, basically predict coding is what I was thinking about. Mm-hmm. You know, how your knowledge or your belief about something changes the way you perceive it. Yeah. And I was wondering the entire time to what extent this was actually happening quite the way it was described, or maybe whether Konik off was just exaggerating everything because he's trying so hard not to say he is the murder.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And so, yeah. Yeah, I wondered about that too, whether, because of course, like if you are really on edge and you're trying not to do something and some guys just being just annoying and ob obnoxious and oblivious about everything, like, it just, it must be so infuriating when this guy just keeps bumbling about all sorts of stuff.

    But I agree with you. I think that's it's intentional from, uh, popular petrovic. I think he's just trying to wind us ov so much. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Until he just gives in. Yeah, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: well, we'll see in the next part. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. So what's gonna happen next part, Anton? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: [01:44:00] Um, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: the next part is, I think the shortest, actually, I think it's, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: is it, I think 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: it's 90 pages.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Interesting. Yeah. If I'm 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: not right, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I think there's probably gonna be something with Sonia again. I mean, we, we master 10 point and find out, I'm 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: sorry, only five chapters. Next part I didn't miss anyone. Yeah. Five chapters, 90 pages. So it's quite a bit shorter than, yep. Sorry. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Um,

    yeah, what he's gonna do, like we need to know, need to find out more about him and yeah. So I think that's definitely gonna happen and yeah, we could lie. I imagine there might be some further developments around him. A one? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Like, uh, what do you mean by father develop? Like in terms of him doing something or saying something?

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: No, but it might be like what, uh, we touched upon [01:45:00] earlier that it might change how, as Nikko thinks about his actions or how he feels about 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: right. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Them when he sees somebody else. Kind of like, um, yeah. Having to deal with the consequences. Mm-hmm. But maybe not, but I think, yeah, maybe something also around Lucian having another girl and trying to get back together with, uh, was going for sister.

    Who knows. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I mean, he was just, he was, I think he just, he was so not expecting his two visits with the family to go like this. That I wonder whether he's just gonna, like, he was just overwhelmed by the whole thing. Then again, he's also a massive drama queen. Uh, and everyone is just annoying when they all talk.

    But, um, you know, the whole thing like, oh, he insulted me. Yeah. And I can, it's either him, it's sky up for me. It was very childlike. Like calm, calmed down. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but I, okay, so the, I mean, I imagine the first thing's gonna be the [01:46:00] funeral, right? Because that's kind of where the Yeah. Or the 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: band kid bang bang.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Oh yeah. Sorry. He missed the funeral. You're right. Yeah. He missed the funeral already. Wait, uh, okay. So, uh, same as question as last time. Is Nikko gonna get arrested? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: No, I think that's gonna happen in the last part, or like any kind of like final thing, because otherwise there will be, um, kind of like, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: but he could be arrested in part five and trialed, or, I don't know, executed or whatever.

    Part six. But do you think he's not? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I don't think so. Do you think so? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. Um, so again, it's 90 page, um, no, I think it's gonna end again with a kind of this time, some final thing that he's gonna get caught. I think it's, it's, it's gonna end in some, maybe some actual evidence or it's going across. Just gonna lose his mind and say that he did it, but I don't think they're actually gonna rest him.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: No. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That thought 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: interesting. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. We'll see. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I just hope [01:47:00] it's not too much of family drama. It's annoying.