18. Book club: Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoevsky, Parts 1 & 2

This is a new kind of episode for this podcast: in addition to the interviews, I will now do a book club in which I and a friend read a long book (>500 pages) I've always wanted to read but haven't gotten around to.  We will read around 100 pages per week and sit down for an hour to chat about the book. To not clog up the podcast feed, I'll publish two discussions in one episode every other week.

 The first book in this book club is Fyodor Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment (Oliver Ready's translation for Penguin Classics). In this episode, we introduce the series in general and discuss parts 1 and 2 of Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment.

For this first book club series, I'm joined by Antonia. We did our Masters degree in Brain and Mind Sciences together at UCL. Since then, Antonia has gotten a PhD in psychology and now works in scientific publishing.

Some important notes:
1) Spoiler alert: we will discuss whatever happened in the book so far
2) You can listen to the episodes without having read the book, but I'm not sure how much sense it wil make. We asume you've read as far as we have. There will be a brief summary at the beginning of each chat, but this is a brief reminder of what happened, not a complete retelling of the story
3) We're using Oliver Ready's translation, published by Penguin Classic. You don't have to have the same version, but it might make it easier when mentioning  page numbers. Also, we really like this translation!
4) This format is quite experimental and it took us 1-2 discussions to find our groove. After this episode, we've found our pattern and the quality of the discussion improves quite a bit
5) Finally, at first I thought this was going to be published as a separate podcast, but I've now decided to make it part of the BJKS Podcast after all. So you can ignore the beginning where I say that this is a new and unnamed podcast

Timestamps
0:00:05: Introducing this new type of episode, and discussing the weird shape of Ben's physical copy
0:07:36: Beginning Part 1
0:55:16: Beginning Part 2
1:04:05: End summary of Part 2, beginning of discussion

Link to photo of my pentagonal copy: https://twitter.com/BjksPodcast/status/1397595784200216577

Podcast links

Ben's links

  • [This is an automated transcript with many errors]

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: [00:00:00] Okay, shall we start then? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yes. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. So this is the first episode of a currently still unnamed podcast. Um, I'll have to think of something within the next few weeks, but the overall idea is that we take a long book, long defined as at least 500 pages, and we read roughly, let's say a hundred pages a week, and then we just talk about it for maybe an hour or so.

    That's the rough outline. Mm-hmm. Of what we're going to do, not only in this episode, not only this series, but in the podcast in general. And the first series is about Crime and punishment by fi doki. Today we're gonna be discussing the first part, so that's the first a hundred pages or so where we are gonna witness a crime.

    One thing that's probably useful to bear in mind is that neither of us knows [00:01:00] much about anything and definitely not about this particular book or this author or this type of literature or whatever. So it's very much just a kind of book club between regular people who enjoy reading and I dunno, might have something interesting to say.

    I dunno, that's the hope. Do you wanna say anything, Antonio? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I totally agree with you that I don't know anything about literature really, although I'm a big reader, but can't really claim that I have any theoretical background knowledge or literature, nor in this case Russia or Russia at that time. But, um, yes, I think there's gonna be a lot of, um, talking about subjective experiences and opinions and hopefully a couple of interesting things will pop up.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Hopefully we'll see. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: We'll see 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: actually. So the first thing I think that we have to talk about, which is something I've already told you about in text [00:02:00] message, but that you haven't seen yet, is the shape of the book that I've got. I know I've sent you a photo, right? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yes, you did. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Dunno how it, it, like, in many ways it looks completely normal, but it's definitely not normal.

    So the thing is, this is also an important point. So we're reading the version by Oliver Rey, which is the Penguin Classics version that came out recently. So it's a new translation and Antonio and I, you know, we both ordered the same book and then mine arrived I think a day after yours. And I was really surprised first that you didn't mention that the book is weirdly shaped because mine is basically antagon.

    Um, it has a, it has a flat base and then so, you know, usually the spine of the book is perpendicular to the base of the book, but mine is roughly a hundred degrees or something. Or maybe 105 degrees and then the top. Yeah, just all the, all the, all the edges are strongly slan at this book. And so I first thought this was the way this book was, and I was surprised that you didn't mention anything.

    But then I realized this it, because it kind of [00:03:00] looks a bit like a tombstone also. So it kind of, it does in a way, fits the theme of the book and. I mean, this is obviously a misprint or a miscut or both. I don't know what went wrong here, but it cuts off certain parts of the cover and of the translation and somehow it just really suits the book in some way.

    I think it's almost better than I, what I imagine the standard copies that you have. But yeah, I think I'll definitely need to, I'll, I'll provide some sort of photo in the description of the podcast. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, you need to, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: but the cool thing is I can actually read the book properly. So even, even though the text is completely skewed on the page, I mean it's, it's probably like a 30 degree angle relative to the base of the, of the book.

    Uh, it's, some of this text actually fits in almost perfectly. I just lose one or two letters in the bottom line of each page. But yeah, I think we'll definitely have to tweet at Penguin and ask what exactly 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah. Is going on. I'm surprised that nobody noticed like the single [00:04:00] person some point, but it's probably all.

    Automized, um, I don't know where you ordered it from, but it's most likely not humans packing the books anymore. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Or if maybe they like, I mean, you know, it took me about 30 seconds to figure out that this was not intentional. So, you know, if you're just packing this thing in a 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, sure. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: In a, in a Amazon warehouse, you're not gonna, you know, look at the book and go, oh, this is really interesting, whatever you're just gonna package.

    Yeah. But it's, what's interesting to me though is that somehow this book was completely miscut and then I guess still printed. So it seems, I dunno, they first cut the pages and then printed. I dunno. But yeah, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: great question. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: It's not the most fascinating aspect of the book, but I, but I have to say that whenever I show this to every anyone, and I showed this to the three people that I talked to in lockdown, they were all absolutely amazed and fascinated by this book.

    And I had to look at it for like a minute or two just because it's such a, yeah. I mean, I think this also says a lot about the [00:05:00] publishing industry that this. I dunno mean how, I dunno how many hundreds of books I've read and this is the first one that isn't perfectly rectangular. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So I think it says a lot about the quality of the, of the publishing industry, that this is such a big deal that the book isn't perfectly 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, made. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. But then again, it's like, I don't know enough about how book's being printed, but it is not like the most technically advanced thing. You think so you but, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: but somehow it can go wrong and I, I, yeah. It 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: can 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: go. I, I'd really be interested to also find out, like, I always feel like I want to look into the publishing industry, like the printing industry now, to find out how a book can come out.

    Pen agonal, like how, like how is this possible? Um, anyway, but that was the, the very first surprise when I received this book. I'm assuming, oh, I don't know. Maybe [00:06:00] Antonio, maybe you have the misprint, maybe you have the weird, rectangular version. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: That's, that's true. Uh, yeah, it's perfectly, um, the perfect right angles.

    Um, and I can 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: actually, can you show it to me? I actually don't know. I, I, I only don't know all of the picture. I'm probably losing like 20% of the image. Yeah. Okay. I mean, to be fair, like you don't really need the water right part. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Like, you, you, yeah. It's, it's what you imagine would be there, uh, and on the backside, because there's another drawing on the back.

    Yeah. I guess I'm just losing, although I'm not actually losing as much as it's, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: but 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: disappointed. No, I'm just, I, I think what I'm losing is just like the, the uninteresting parts of the image anyway. Like, you know, the bottom, you had like the floor and the lower part of the, uh, skirt or whatever dress, right?

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: It's not the most interesting part of the image. Anyway. Shall we talk about the actual book rather? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, let's talk about the 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: book rather than the physical book. [00:07:00] Okay. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Are, are we assuming readers are listens, have read? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Ah, yes. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Or, or should 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That's a good point, yes. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Should we give a short summary? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, I'm assuming that the, I mean, I think it would still probably be decent to give a short summary.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But the assumption is that people have read this and then for whatever reason, I think it might be good to listen to us talk about it afterwards. Um, but no, this is not, uh, so yeah, we, we, there's gonna be lots of spoilers. We're gonna talk about what the crime is. So half the title's gonna be revealed in this episode.

    Yeah. I mean, shall we give a brief summary or. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, go ahead. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Ah, dam it. No, I have to do it. Um, okay, so, uh, we meet good old Nikko, uh, with his first name, I've forgotten already. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Nikko Ho Hoon, also known as Roka. Hoia or Mano. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. [00:08:00] Actually, uh, one thing that's, um, I am, so I didn't read the introduction of the book.

    There's like a 50 page introduction by the translator, which seems excessive, so I didn't read it. Uh, did you, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: um, part of it? Um, I started, but then I wanted to start with the, the actual text, actual book. So, but it is interesting, um, I don't know what, are you referring to this, but, um, a note on names that, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: that's what I was at.

    Russians typically have three names. A first name, a patron nimic, and a surname. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, exactly. So I think that's kind of useful that, I mean, in a way it's silly to put it in there because once you know this, it's true for every Russian book. But this was very confusing for me when I tried to read One Peace when I was like 17 or something and I thought like, man, this is so confusing.

    Everyone has like three names plus another name, and I didn't know that the middle name is just the name of the dad. And then an itch at the end basically. Right? Yeah. For males at least. So I was like, oh, there's this, you know, I don't know [00:09:00] Alex. And then it has Alex Itch and they have all these similar names and it's super confusing.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: It is confusing 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: though. It's good that you mentioned this at the beginning. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, and this is also, yeah, as with most Russian books, I'm glad that there is an explanation, uh, not an explanation, but like, uh, like with a play, you have a list of characters here in the beginning. So yeah, it is nice to know that the main character o Konik off can be referred to as Konik off.

    Ano,

    let's, like, there's lots of ways in which you can address this guy, and also father, which was a, but this, there's the note in the main thing that when there's the victim of the crime lit, when it turns out who's basically a stranger to this guy, um, apart from maybe like a business setting, refers to him as father, because apparently you can do that in Russia to men.

    I don't know. Um, [00:10:00] but yeah, actually I was trying to summarize the book, right? Yeah. On the first part. Uh, okay. So, so 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: that, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: that guy with the multiple names, he is, he's not exactly a chill dude, let's put it that way. But he used to be a student in law, I believe, and. So I don't think it's actually entirely clear why he's not a student anymore.

    Well, they said because he couldn't afford it, right? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. I think he can't afford it in the beginning. So he used to, to teach, but that was, um, too little to allow him to continue his studies, um, which is why he had to pause them pretty much. So he now refers to himself as a former student, I think this is 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: mm-hmm.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Something say, and then he receives a letter. So he's very poor. And I think from what I, what he can sense is that he's not entirely used to being in this situation of poverty [00:11:00] and also doesn't do him well psychologically or emotionally as far as that understand. And then he receives a letter from his mother who tells him about, about his sister getting married or being engaged to.

    A, what's his name? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Oh, don't ask me. Uh, he has, um, a stranger, basically. Right? Like that's the, I'm sure he, I'm sure he'll become more important later on, but I haven't remembered. Uh, I know Lucian is his name, right? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Lucian p Pure Petrovic. And he's a, a, a man of business, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: whatever the fuck that means, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: business man.

    But, um, Moscar doesn't approve of this engagement at all, but he feels like it's partly his fault and that he can't really do anything about it because I [00:12:00] think, um, one reason for the engagement is that loosens that this man of business has money. So he will obviously stay his sister. And, um, I think also helped the mother.

    So Nikko feels guilty because he, rather than being able to send money to his sister and his mother, he's actually receiving money from them, which is why he believes he needs to do something about, about is and kind of like rescue his sister from this, um, engagement, so to say. And so then he decides to murder ion even off, who's a, a porn broker who he has pretty much given all his, um, valuables to.

    And the idea [00:13:00] is to steal. To murder her and to, to steal. Not entirely sure whether he only wants to steal back his stuff initially or whether he's intending to take more. Anyway, he gets an aches and at a time where he knows that Elona is gonna be alone at home, he goes and murders her. Um, he's then surprised by Ana's sister, who he murders as well.

    'cause she's there at the wrong place and then he runs back home and, well, was Rat. Pardon? Was rat. You might as well. Yeah, no, obviously because she would've been a witness. Um, and he managed to escape and made it back home. And that's pretty much the, the end of part one or that's the end of our discussion.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So thank you for listening. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Uh, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: no, but what I found interesting, so I think you got. It's kinda interesting, you, there's one thing you said there that I think [00:14:00] is not actually correct and that, as you said, I dunno whether you said it intentionally, but you said that he received this letter and then he decides to kill this woman.

    But he actually, the, the very, the beginning of the first chapter or the first chapter when he, he visits her, right. He already visits her to check out all the stuff. So he actually already has this plan before he receives the letter from his mother. And that's does she 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: But sorry. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, what I find interesting is that he is, what I'm say is that in a way this seems like in part this is written as if this guy has no volition or no, no, uh, ability to choose over his actions in a way.

    And that sometimes it's written like he says, like he's almost like automatically doing this stuff, blah, blah, blah. Um, and the, so what I mean is that. Before he actually receives the letter, he visits this woman, right? He says he needs pull on something, but basically just wants to [00:15:00] check out the location, see where everything is so he can steal it.

    Then afterwards, and then he goes to a bar where he listens to this old guy, basically drunkenly, telling his story about how he fucked up his life and how he fucked up the life of his family, especially his daughter who's now a prostitute. And then he visits that guy's family and sees kind of the misery that this old, I can't remember what his former job was, but that this old guy put his family into particularly, you know, his wife and his daughter.

    And then after that, Hasko go, receives the letter, um, and basically sees that what he's doing, he's doing the same thing that this guy is doing to his family. And I think he's, I'm never quite sure like how to interpret this because it's always kept kind of vague, but. It's not that his sister's, you know, prostituting herself, but she's just marrying some random dude.

    Right. Anyway, but what I find interesting here is that it's from all these events, right? It seems almost [00:16:00] like it was, he was pushed into it a bit, right? Like he, he sees this misery that's gonna happen and as if there's only one one way out of the whole thing. Yeah. Um, but he has planned it kind of even before then.

    He, like, that's the first scene I think, if I remember correctly, him going there to check out how we can steal the stuff. Right. And he talks about the acts already then. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Okay. So, um, um, maybe I'm misunderstood it, but for me it felt like this was a very vague kind of like idea it seemed to me, and then like the trigger for actually doing it was the letter first.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So, I mean, so what's, okay, so one thing that I, so in a way I agree with you. Uh, I, I think that's the way it's written, but I don't think, I mean, this might be a nuance here, but I think in a way it's written from his perspective almost to justify that he, [00:17:00] he, you know, didn't mean to, I dunno, something like that.

    But what I find interesting is that, like, one thing that really stayed with me from a just writing perspective is one of the first, I think this is on one of the first pages when he walks to, um, wait, what's her name again? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: A Leona 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Aona. Uh, when he walks to her house, one of the first thing he thinks of is his hat that he's wearing because he is wearing an unusual German style hat or something like that.

    I don't know the exact details here, but he walks through the streets and then he remembers, oh no, I'm wearing this hat. People are gonna recognize me. So to me, like, and this is already like I, he's, he's rehearsing this whole thing, right? He's going through it and saying, okay, I can't be wearing that hat because then people recognize me and I need to be as inconspicuous as I can.

    So, I mean, to me it's, in a way, in the end it almost feels like he did it, uh, without even wanting to, but it's also super planned, the whole thing. Like [00:18:00] he, he even had planned like how he makes, how he can hide the ax in his jacket and all this kind of stuff. Like he's really thought this through in a way, right?

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yes. But then when he eventually decides to do it, it feels like, it feels like this is almost like a spontaneous, so I completely agree with him that, that he like, um, planned it through and also like knows exactly when, um, the, the girl in the kitchen is not gonna be there so he can get the X, et cetera.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Um, but when he decides to do it, he's almost like, it's almost spontaneous and it's almost like. It's, it's not him making a decision, but it's just he's get, goes into some sort of trance, like trans, like states and simply follows, I don't know, [00:19:00] follows, follows his. Um, it, it almost appears that he was following some orders of something, but it's not, he, he consciously decides to do this.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Am 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I making sense at all? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, I know what you mean. And th this is like one thing that, one thing that I find interesting about is that there is clearly that part to it. But there is, you know, also this clearly planned thing. So, I mean, one thing I'd probably say is this was planned ahead, but very poorly.

    Um, so he thinks about all these things that can happen, how he used to go through the back entrance of the thing. And you know, as I said, he finds out by chance when this woman will be on her own, when her sister won't be there so he can kill her. And like everything in a way is planned there, but it's just planned very poorly.

    And I mean, this is also, when I said earlier that I'm not entirely sure why he's not a student anymore. I wonder whether it was really just the finances. I mean, at least right now he seems completely incapable of thinking straight. I mean, the whole thing is also like, [00:20:00] you have the situation where you are poor, you're not, you dunno how to deal with it.

    And it seems like because of this your, you know, your family is basically sacrificing their own happiness for you to be able to be the student and. Somehow the only solution that you can think of is to murder an old lady, to steal her things. Like he's thought about the murder almost before he thought about the theft.

    It seems like he could have somehow maybe tried to steal something else from someone else, right? Like it's just so, like, and none of it really makes any sense. And this is not a criticism to the author, right? Um, it's just the, the, the state of mind of Nikko is just all over the place. Like it's, yeah, he's not, he's not thinking anything through properly.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. But then again, she was kind of like an obvious victim. 'cause of two reasons. First of all seems to be one of the very few people he knows who has a lot of money and valuables. [00:21:00]Um, and then secondly. There's this thing about her that, so when he overheard the conversation, um, in, in the bar of, um, the two men talking about her, they say something very interesting and they, they talk about how much she's actually brought, um, or destroyed other people's lives and accumulated wealth, um, through her profession and stay kind of like, um, one of them suggested that she would better be killed or something along those lines, but doesn't really mean it.

    Um, but they still talk about whether killing her would be because it, it would help so many people in a way, or it could help many people, whether the crime of, of killing her wouldn't actually be smaller than. Letting to continue, letting her [00:22:00] continue destroying other people's lives. And I think I actually, um, there's one sentence, um, which I marked, which says, weren't thousands of good deeds iron out one tiny little of crime.

    I mean, this is like, um, I think like a, an interesting question. But because of that, because she's bringing so many, uh, destroying so many lives, she is in a way an obvious victim. No. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yep. I know. And it's, um, I mean, yeah, I, so here's the thing. He hears that, and that's, I mean, it's not a legal, not a good legal argument, but it's, it's a moral case You can make and understand that.

    But the thing is he doesn't think it through. He just hears that and goes like, oh yeah, it's alm It seems to me almost like, you know, like he was just looking for, yeah, it might as well be her then. But I dunno, it just seemed weird to me that a guy who supposedly wants to be, and or being a student in like 1850 is a [00:23:00]different thing than being a student now, right?

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, like that, that the only thing he can think of also seems to be like, okay, teaching didn't work out. Okay, I'm gonna steal stuff then, and if I'm gonna do that, it might as well be this p terrible person. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: But don't you think also Sid, partly because he wants to have his stuff back, so it feels like, at least because he feels like it rightfully belongs to him, and, but he will probably never have see it again.

    So, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yes. But I, I feel like if that had been the case, he would've thought more about the things that he wanted back. The only time that we really hear about what he gave her is. They mentioned briefly, I think the first time he went, yeah. After the first time he went there, that's when he overheard this conversation between the two people.

    And there again, he gave away like his, this ring that his sister gave him. Mm-hmm. Because she wanted him to think of her. So that's the first thing he gave away. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, I dunno, I don't [00:24:00] think he cared too much about the stuff. I mean Yeah, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah, yeah. Maybe, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: but it's, I mean, that's, but that's the what. Yeah.

    What I find interesting is this difference between, it, it kind of all makes sense, his argument, like the, the way it's put out, but it doesn't seem to me like he ever thinks anything through properly. It, it seems, I mean, he's not in a state to think things through. Right. In one, I can't remember where this is in, at one part, he, like, he's so hungry and drinks a bit of vodka and then passes out and has this terrible Oh yeah.

    This terrible dream about the horse. Mm-hmm. I didn't like reading that part. Mm. Um, that was, and I, I meant to look it up. Isn't that also what happened to Nietzsche? So in this, maybe briefly in this dream, that's a really horrible dream that he has when he's just passed out. I think in the middle of the day, just like he's just, he's not in a good physiological or psychological state.

    Um, he has this dream of him being a kid with his father. And then they somehow, they, [00:25:00] what's exactly this scene, they watch this group of young men, well, it seems like they're all kind of drunk and a bit, uh, ram rambunctious. And, uh, he starts whip, one of the guys starts, he has a horse and a cart, and it's an old horse, and he starts whipping his horse, uh, and he says like, everyone go into the cart, we're driving.

    And people say like, no, no, the the, you have an old weak horse. Like it can't carry all of us. It's weird. I mean, in a way, I think he's just, look, he just wants to beat the shit out of his horse and he's just looking for excuse to do so. And then he starts just whipping his horse. Relentlessly. And the other people start whipping the horse also.

    And then at the end, like six people are just whipping this horse across the eyes and the nose and everything. And in the end, the guy takes like a big, I think he starts with off like a big piece of wood and then he ends up as a crowbar and just bashes onto the horse to dies. [00:26:00] And the interesting thing is here, apart from the fact that this was, I actually felt this was quite horrible to read.

    Uh, is that, is I think, if I remember correctly, this was kind of what happened to Nietzsche when he had a mental breakdown that someone, that there were people whipping a horse in a public place and then he couldn't take it and then like went to the, like, ran to the horse and like held it in his arms the way us konik off did as a kid also after the horse was dead and said like, you can't do this to the horse.

    Um, but I, anyway, um, my, what I was just trying to get out there was more that he. I, he just passed out in the middle of the day. Right. Or maybe it was in the evening, I can't remember. But he's just, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: he was in the middle of the day, but then again, he, he had a glass of mosco and an empty stomach. So, I don't know.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I also dunno what a glass of vodka means in Russia. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Like what, I dunno what exactly we're talking about. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. [00:27:00] No, that's interesting. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But the thing is like, this is just his general state though. I, in a way, I'm, I'm defending his pool or him not thinking stuff through 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: because he's just Yeah. He complete, yeah.

    Complete despair. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Um, and I think his, he doesn't, and that's what I've ended at the beginning. He doesn't seem to be able to deal with this situation because it doesn't seem to be situation he's been in before and knew not to that extent. Uh, it is an assumption, but he's not, um, as smart. Poor person who's learned to live on the streets and, and find a way, but he's emotionally, physically, um, yeah.

    On all, all levels in complete despair, seems 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's, yeah. He's, he is not in a, in a happy place at any point in the first part. Um, actually one thing, uh, that I wanted to talk about briefly is the translation, and it relates to this, is that, uh, [00:28:00] so I actually read the first part in German a few years ago in the, I dunno by whom, but the, has an edition, and I read that one.

    And I think this, this translation here that we have now, redi suits the state of mind that Nikko has a lot better, um, than at least the German, because I think the, the English one kind of maintains this kind of frenzied state of mind that he has. Mm-hmm. Whereas the German is more. You know, like a 19th century author who's like a more traditional classical way of telling this thing, everything's a bit calm, or sentence is a bit longer and all this kinda stuff.

    Whereas I feel like this one, uh, this is something, you know, I'm often quite critical of translations, but this one doesn't really feel like it's much of a translation. Um, of course you are like translating from a foreign culture, but it feels like very natural. And I think one thing that he gets across really well is this kind of complete despair that Gonko finds himself.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, yeah. What I also find is, is, is [00:29:00] this constant state, you know, that something bad is coming and I don't, sometimes it's explicit, um, in a way that he's like, kind of like asking himself, am I already gonna do this? Can I already do something like this? Yeah. But sometimes it's also less explicit, but there's this constant feel when you read the first part or the first hundred pages.

    Even without knowing the title, crime, crime and Punishment. But you know, something is coming and it's, it's, and I think this is partly because of the language. It feels like it's such a turmoil within him and pretty much yeah. Around him that, you know, this is like, at some point it's just gonna x or implode in some way.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, I agree. I think it's also because, you know, as you said, like I think this isn't the first chapter where he says, where he does this kind of rehearsal and visits, uh, the woman and everything. Like he's already thinking about all these things, [00:30:00] like, I already gonna do this. Uh, like, or even then just thinking of like, oh, I did that wrong.

    If I do this, then people will recognize me and just then already being very defensive about everything and 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: mm-hmm. Yeah. Although at that point you don't really know exactly what he is going to do. You noted he's up to something. Maybe 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: he's def Well, I think at the beginning it seems like he's just trying to steal something.

    I think it's fairly obvious. Like when he goes to this porn broker and he looks at like, okay, here's where all the money is and here's that, and here's where she keeps the keys. I think it's fairly clear that he's trying to steal something there. But, but yeah, but that's what, that's what I found so interesting that then he, I mean, so the thing is he's trying to steal from an elderly lady, right?

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And I can't remember any, there's probably some in there, but I can't remember what he's described as physically. But you would on average, imagine that a young, at least somewhat healthy guy could overwhelm an old lady. And [00:31:00] he, you know, it's not that he, how should we say? To me, the violence somehow is part of the whole thing for him.

    Because like, if I think about I'm gonna steal something from this old lady. I'm not gonna bring a fucking ax. Like you don't need an ax. He knows the person he gets in, like he doesn't need the ax to break in. Like worst case, he could have brought like a pipe or something. Like, you don't need a fucking ax overwhelm with old lady.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Although, because he is, at some point he says that he's already, uh, he would, he also has got some, what do you call it, like clippers or scissors? A knife or something? Like a small Oh, like a pocket knife? Yeah. Yeah, somethings, yeah. Um, a, a small tool or weapon, but then he, um, decides against it. And I think that maybe has two reasons.

    One of them who really wants to ensure that it, that he's gonna be successful. And then also isn't it a bit [00:32:00] more, um. Maybe keep a bit more distance. I imagine if you can, like for example, yeah, really with a, with a small pocket knife, there's probably gonna be a bit more fighting and a bit more like having to hold somebody down and like, unless you really manage with the first punch to, to knock them out.

    But, but up but an axis, like yes, there's a bit more distance between the, the murderer and the 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: murderer. Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Murdery. And then also it's, you know, like you can more easily knock somebody else immediately and you don't really have to come physically close. And I can imagine, especially because he is on some level, knowing that what, what he's doing is completely wrong.

    Maybe he wouldn't have had the strength to carry it through if it would, if it would've been a bit more difficult. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, that's a fair point. And [00:33:00] uh, should obviously also clarify that he doesn't hit her with a blade of the ax. Right. He uses it, uses it as a blunt weapon. And you're right. I think if, uh, I mean, he hits her on the crown of the head, so she was facing away from him.

    Right. Um, I think she was turned away and then he hits on the head three times or something, which 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Man, hitting someone on the head three times is, oh, that's gonna be mushy by a l latest the third time you hit on it. Uh, um, but I, but again, like, okay, I get like, you know, you said earlier that he, in a way killing her, isn't, you know, there's this like, moral question.

    Like, if one person does lots of harm to lots of people, is it justified to, I guess, take that person out so that person can't harm all the other people? Uh, wait, what was I saying? So I, I understand, um, that aspect of it, but he could have, like, I know.

    There, there are other ways to [00:34:00] go about this just to bash someone on the score. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: And I wonder, I mean, this is gonna, we are gonna see in the next, um, parts, but I wonder how

    he is not already like, um, making up for, so what is he gonna do? Because it's, it is obviously the, the dears that so many people suffer because of her. But is he then gonna, from what he stole and is he gonna give some money to other people? And if, if not, if he's just keeping it for himself, then he hasn't really, then that moral question is out of the window because then he.

    Um, he doesn't really make up for, for the suffering that she's caused. Um, and then 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: just to add, sorry, add to that point, he actually isn't helping the people who pawn, who pawn something from him. I don't think so. I dunno exactly what the legal status is of these kind of things. But the thing is that what they write about is that the one reason why this woman is such a bad person is because she's living with her [00:35:00] sister and she's, you know, keeping her almost as a slave, what they say, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: but then he's calling, uh, killing the sister.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, yeah. No, no, that's my point. Yeah, yeah. No, no. I mean, that was, you know, in a way, oh, that's a different thing we can talk about later. But my point is more that, uh, one thing that they, that these two men that. Konik overhears talking. Um, one thing that they say is so bad about her is that she's not giving any of her will to her sister, but she's giving it all away to some monastery or something, right?

    Yeah. She has a will where everything of hers goes away. So now I'm assuming if your porn broker doesn't, or your stuff then go to the monastery. It doesn't go to the people, right. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, I don't think so. I'm not sure how much he's taken, but I assume that because he didn't, he didn't take the box, did he? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I, that's actually one thing that was slightly unclear to me.

    I dunno whether he actually took anything. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: He took 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Oh, he took the wallet. Her purse? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, he took the wallet. He 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: took a purse. But that's [00:36:00] pretty much it. Right? Because I think he couldn't open the rest. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: He, he, you opened the box under the bed. No, and there was 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: just, yeah, but I think then the sister came in, right?

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. But I'm not sure whether he took something from the box, because I think there was something in the, something valuable, not only the dress, but it was like a watch or something. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But if I remember correctly, I mean like when he comes home, there's no mentioning of the box or anything. Right. So I'm 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: assuming he didn't take 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: it.

    Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: So probably also because he was kind of like, um, fleeing and like he would've mentioned Yeah, if he had been carrying a large object, but maybe he me, that's what I mean. Yeah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: exactly. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. But then, um. And the, the, the next thing is also did, the situation is not black and white in that she's a bad person, um, and therefore deserves to be killed.

    But in many ways, like the people who come to her, she's like, although she ends up charging too much, but for they, people do come to her initially [00:37:00] because. She gives them some money. So in some weird way, she's also there, um, you know, rescue as well as downfall like, because she's giving some money, but then they um, obviously she has like ridiculous charges, et cetera.

    So 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: also we should also add by today's standards, her, she has like interest rates of like 9% or something, right? We're not talking about like, uh, the people now who can, I think it's like illegal now most countries, but I remember seeing some ads in the UK a few years ago with like 900% interest or something, you know?

    So she's not at that level, but yeah, she's charging more than at least it seems most people are. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. But yeah. But when by killing her, you are not really change, he's not changing the system. And the people who didn't, who came to her because of it to request the mommy money still has the same problems.

    So, yeah. So in terms of the moral question, I don't really think that it, this holds [00:38:00] here. Because it's, it's, it's a no benefit to anybody other than maybe the monastery. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah. Which this is 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: all the Monastery's plot. They planted all these people around him. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah, yeah. I agree. I mean, he's not, he's not, he's, he's mainly, he's primarily solving his own problem and maybe also solving other people's problem, but then again, only on a very short term basis.

    I mean, the, the, the people don't have money and lend money at high interest rates, and that's the problem, because that's usually just a cycle that, uh, reinforces itself. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, but yeah, she's just a small cog in that whole system. She's not, I don't think she's doing anything particularly unusual.

    She's, you know, she's also, that, what I find also interesting is that she somehow seems to have this power without really seeming to have any, so that she. So what, the one thing they criticized that like as soon as you're late with your [00:39:00] payments to her she'll, like your object will just disappear or something, right?

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So in a way, she like calls this strong power over people, but she's not like the kind of person who has like a gang of people who will like find your home and beat you up, right? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: She's like her, her evil is, is like in the, like when you look at like these kind of books, right? The bad things she does is pretty limited compared to what a lot of, at least other literary characters would do in this kinda situation.

    Um, so I mean, all that happens is if you are, if you are late with your payment, she, I mean, yeah, she's just very strict with her financial stuff, but somehow she, she doesn't really have any power, right? Like, if you don't. She's just a random person, basically. If you don't go to her and give her your stuff, you're, nothing's gonna happen.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. I wonder because it's almost like, it seems like why didn't this happen before? Especially because she Yeah. Exactly. Destroyed so many people's lives. Why didn't some, anybody before tried to, to steal [00:40:00] stuff from her or, or, um, kill her and, but then there's something, because she usually doesn't leave the house.

    So it seems to me, I think is mentioned, uh, towards the end of the first part. Um, so that, for me, I took this a bit like, um, as indirect direct sign, that she was maybe a bit aware of her situation, that it might be dangerous and that some people might be very, um, how do you say, disgruntled towards her. Um, and um, that something like this might happen.

    And also when you first knock, she doesn't really want to open. So I think maybe on some level though, she had this immense authority over people, surprisingly, but then she probably also knew that this was on somewhat shaky grounds. Um, or 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, exactly. And she, she doesn't, didn't even recognize him. Right.

    I think because she doesn't see particularly well or something. I mean, if [00:41:00] you, if you wanted to, uh, tell the story from her perspective, you could probably tell it as a story of an old lady who's just trying to get by and, uh. Is in constant fear of someone robbing her or something and then a guy comes along and hits over on the head with an ax.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: well that would, that would be a shorter book then. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Oh, well. I mean, I dunno, maybe she has some internal moral dilemma she's going through. Yeah. You know, it's like, oh, this person's really suffering, but I'm also suffering. I need the money. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Well, everyone actually, everyone says she has a lot of money.

    Uh, again, this is not her saying it, but this is just an outside voice. And again, this is not, again, this is just kind of what I, what I find where Nikko doesn't think things through properly. He just hears one account of rumors is the next thing, right? He never talked to the sister and asked her like what it's like or anything, right?

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: He just hears overhears a young guy telling a story in a pub to another guy, right? And [00:42:00] guys tell a lot of stories in pubs and that's all he basically has to go on, right? He. And his own experiences of, of her overcharging or whatever. But that's it. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: But do you think that it is almost a, it is, it just gives him some more assurance?

    Um, I think this like core pub situation and, um, when, uh, him overhearing people, human discussing whether she should be killed and whether that would this like immoral deed would, um, cover the all, all the imal deeds that she's done. Uh, yeah, I think it's an interesting question, but as we, we've, um, or as we agree on it doesn't really make sense in this case, but it almost feels like he doesn't want to think about this in more detail, but he just wants to have more assurance and reasons for why his actions.

    Yeah. To support his [00:43:00] actions. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, that's what I mean. He's, he is, yeah. It gives him like an easy way out to go. Like, oh yeah, what I'm doing is justified rather than, um, you know, especially, I mean, I don't know what exactly a legal student did in 1850, whatever, but you'd imagine that they'd have a bit more training and actually figuring out what's true and not just going like, oh, well someone said it, therefore it has to be true.

    Um, and therefore I'm morally somewhat justified in my actions. He just, I think he's just looking for an yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. Justification, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: an easy way out and a justification for Yeah. Um, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: although is the easy way out, I, I just wonder what would, what would've been the other way out so that he, um, his sister gets married to this, um, businessman and then he might receive some money from him, or the businessman might be able to help him find a job, et cetera.

    But yeah. Um, [00:44:00] it's. Like in his like, um, current situation. It, it seems like from there's, at least that's the impression that Dota gets. I think that it very much seems like from his side, there's nothing he can do, no action he can take to get himself out of the situation other than doing something illegal.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Well, he could have like lied to his family. Right? Uh, maybe lying to your family is worse than killing old lady. But, um, like he could have like the, the, the whole thing that gets him in this mess is that basically he's, he's living off his mother's. Small pension. Right. That's the whole problem. Like his, I dunno what happens with his father.

    I can't remember. I guess he died. Um mm-hmm. Anyway, his mother has a small pension from which she feeds herself, her daughter, and Konik off. Uh, and she also like knits, scarfs or something, um, from [00:45:00]which she makes like a fair amount relative to her pension in addition. Um, and is living off that. Right. So like one step and sorry.

    And the, and the sister, um, and like, well this money isn't enough for the three of them, and his sister then marries this guy because that's the only way they see that they can support, not the only way, but at least the easiest way for them also that they can support us going off being a student again.

    I dunno. He may be, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: well they don't know. They don't know that he is not a student anymore. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I think so. Right. I can't. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I think in a lesson, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I'm assuming, but it's a supportive students anyway. It's, it is a, it's two supportive studies, right? That's the, the whole point. Okay. Maybe they think he's a student, but the reason that the system manage this guy is because this is a fin, a financial way out of the misery, let's put it that way.

    Maybe he could have just said like, oh yeah, I got a job. And then it's like, maybe then his sister said like, oh, yeah, I guess then I don't need to [00:46:00] Then we're financially more settled. I don't know. Like his sister and his mother haven't seen him in years, is he could just, he could tell them anything. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah.

    But I wonder what, yeah. What I wasn't secure about is why the marriage would've been such a disaster. It's, um, I mean, I guess that maybe doesn't seem like this is a love marriage and therefore he can't know that the, the businessman will treat his sister well. However, it seems like such a strong response.

    He doesn't want his sister to, to get married to this guy. Such an extent that I almost wonder whether there's something like another level of all, or is it, what is it? Why can't he? Because it seems like he does want to be more involved in his sisters and his mother's, like, make some [00:47:00] decision or, or, um, I don't know, change something about, about the situation.

    So, but just telling them, listen, I've got a job now. You don't need to send me any money. It's almost as if he would be removing himself, but it seems like his reaction was so strong. So I wonder whether he, he wants to be, you know, the man of the family and wants to ensure that his sister doesn't get married off.

    And, and to be the man of the family, he needs to have some kind of money. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, I mean, so two things. I guess I could comment on that. The first thing is that part of it is just emotionally driven by the fact that just before he received the letter, like just before he received the letter, he saw this family in complete misery where the daughter prostituted herself and that kind of stuff.

    Mm-hmm. So it's just this analogy going like, oh, look, that guy is living off the cost of his family and now like, they're all miserable, like completely miserable. The, the, the neighborhood made like the door was open or[00:48:00] something. Right. And the neighbors looked in and like, almost like laughed at them and everything.

    It was just internal misery and uh, social stigma attached with it and all that kinda stuff. Right. Like, I think in parts, this is just, he saw an analogist situation just before and thought like, oh, this can, I can't make, let this happen. Right. Which is not, you know, the necessarily the thought through thing, but I can understand how like that can have a strong effect on you.

    Right. Yeah. The second thing is. Yeah. Or I can't remember whether I had a second thing, but the second thing is more about the, yeah, the question you asked, the why he has such a problem with it, and Yeah, I'm not entirely sure either, because it seems like the, I mean, it seems like the, the guy, the Lucian guy just doesn't care about his this in a way.

    Like, he doesn't seem like he'd, he'd care enough to be abusive, right? Like it's, he just seems like a guy who wants an arranged marriage more or less, where he can have a, a wife and they can have a family, and then they, they like, it's a very businesslike [00:49:00] thing, right? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, it, it seems like he, his sister wouldn't really see much of the guy anyway.

    Like, I dunno. And it, it doesn't, I also, I'm not getting the impression that Oscar Nikko is a huge romantic in the sense that he thinks every marriage should be out of love and all that kind. Like, there's never any mention of love from his side, right? Mm-hmm. Nothing at all. Somehow. So I, I, I dunno whether that would be motivation for him.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. So I wonder what it is, something to do with, um, pride and being like, because if another man has to jump in to 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I see. You mean like before he could have been the student himself and could have been the genius, but now especially because they want Yeah, they also want, like us going off to work for Lucin, right?

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So now he's just like helping out almost and got there through connections. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: And also, I mean, you know, like obviously as a, as a man in particular, [00:50:00] um, especially during this time, I imagine being, being head of a family, um, and being the strong male and being the one who kind of like looks after your mother and your sister once your dad has passed, probably was more important than it might be now.

    And if somebody else kind of like jumps in and then. He would be employed to him maybe. Maybe that's like the, the, yeah. One, one reason for why this whole situation, the idea of his sister getting married is so difficult for him. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. That could be. I'm trying to think whether we like, know anything about him.

    Like in terms of whether he, like what you say makes complete sense. I'm just trying to see whether I can remember anything that relates to it. Because I can't remember like him going like, I have to be the man of the fact what? Right. Like, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That could, but yeah, it makes sense what you [00:51:00] say. But, um, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: but yeah, or maybe there's something we don't know yet.

    Who knows. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, of course. We've, we've read the first sixth, so, yeah. I don't know. Like, in a way that's, that's the funny thing, right? We've read a hundred pages that are. Not all, but a large part is about what's knik off and what he's doing. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And we don't really know that much about him. Right. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: And 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: there's fairly little, um, biographical information other than Yeah.

    The stuff we mentioned. He's a former student of law, he's poor, he's not dealing well with it. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: But as probably also the nature of very moments of despair, that one is very obsessed about, uh, the problem at ha at hand. And there's a lot of what 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: reduces to that then. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. And there's a lot of circular thinking or falling back, think forth and back thinking.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Yeah. [00:52:00] Because I mean, another thing like that he could have done, right? I mean, yeah. One thing, it's interesting you say that because it is like, one thing I thought earlier is that his entire, the entire a hundred pages, right? I mean there's of course like explaining the family stuff and that that takes a bit, but like in a hundred pages.

    He all he really thinks about is this crime he's gonna commit and Yeah, that's what I mean. He seems to lack kind of the freedom to just take a step back and say like, okay, what are my options? Like what are, like, even hypothetically, what could I do to get out of this myself? I mean, for example, there's, you know, there's also this friend he mentions who got him the teaching job or something.

    Um, this is only super short because he basically says, oh, I could visit this friend. I mean, his friend also, like this guy doesn't have friends, right. He seems he, he doesn't seem like even before this misery, he didn't seem like the most fun person. [00:53:00] Mm-hmm. Um, it seems like he basically didn't have any friends.

    Right. But there was this one guy he got along with and that guy got him a teaching job or something like that, or helped him get one, and then he thinks, oh, I could, I could. Ask him whether I can, you know, get a teaching job again. But then he says that, well, I'll do that after the crime. It's like,

    really? You wanna murder someone before you see? I mean, of course the teaching wasn't enough. I get it. But, um, yeah, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah. But yeah, you're right. Like his, his entire worldview that we experienced in the, in the first a hundred pages is restricted to the crime and motivations for it. Kind of. Right.

    There's, it's, it's very, yeah. His thinking is very restricted. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Well, interested to see what's gonna happen next. So the next, for the [00:54:00]next, um, discussion, we will have read up to. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Well, just part two, right? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. What, where does part two end? Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Is 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: that part? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: It's, it's the longest part. Part two is slightly longer than the others, but 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Okay.

    So up to, yeah, up to 232. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, it's easier to say just until the end of part two, right? Yes. Because in case people are using other versions. Yeah. Uh, yeah. And I don't know if people like listening to this. Maybe they'll listen to the other one too. We, we'll see what the retention rate is between episode one and episode two.

    It would be great to see just exponential decay within the episode. Like everyone just stop listening after two minutes. And exponential decay 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: is 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: possible within, is possible, uh, between episodes. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: but that's fine. We're not doing it for [00:55:00] them. We are doing it because otherwise I'd just not finished reading these long books, but get distracted along the way.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, same here.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Hello, this is the second episode of a Still Unnamed podcast in which we are talking about Dusty F'S Crime and Punishment. This is the second episode in which we're gonna discuss part two, and the first episode we discuss part one. If you didn't listen to the first part, then maybe do that first, or at the very least, read the first part.

    Uh, and we're also assuming that you've read the second part and say as there's gonna be lots of spoilers. So I think. Last time is probably good to have a very brief summary of what happened in part two. It's 110 pages with a lot of plot points. So I think I'm just gonna [00:56:00] briefly summarize what happens.

    I think what I'm gonna do is a two or three sentence summary for each chapter. Uh, like really go, I'm just gonna go through it chapter by chapter. Right. Um, so the end of chap of part one, lets go call Fed murdered. Those women returned home. So that's where we now start in, in the first chapter of part two.

    So he is at home. He is, uh, he stayed in bed all night and slept half the next day. He wakes up and then tries to hide the evidence of what he had. So he, uh, did take some items from the house. He tries to hide that in some hole in the wall or whatever behind the wallpaper. He tries to, you know, just remove all the evidence, the, that he has some bloodstains on the bottom of his.

    Trousers, um, trust, get rid of that. And then kind of whilst he's doing that, he gets a letter and is summoned to the police station. So like a good boy, he goes to the police station, [00:57:00] um, and obviously assumes that this is about the murder, but it has nothing to do with that. Uh, they, the police just wants him here because his landlady got really fed up that he hadn't paid his rent basically for months.

    The police talks about the murder, and I think they have some suspects or something like that. They're starting to work on it, but, you know, no one's assuming that konik off is the murder. And then when they talk about it, he loses his shade of FES on the spot and then they carry him home. Chapter two.

    Then OV goes home and tries to hide basically the evidence of anything, of all the stuff that he stole. So he takes everything and wanders around. St. Petersburg finds a big rock somewhere in the middle of, in some back alley. And basically hides it all underneath, some random, underneath this random rock.

    The rock happens to be closed to his friend kin, the one that he doesn't, he wanted to but then didn't visit in part one. Then he is exceedingly erratic when he [00:58:00] visits his friend. He's, his friend, offers again to help him out with some money or something, but konik off just basically freaks out and leaves again.

    He then goes home, falls asleep and basically hallucinates or has a nightmare about the policeman beating his landlady. But then it turns out that, yeah, he just hallucinated that another that happened except with three. Then he continues, or basically he falls into like feverish dreams or sleep for three to four days or something like that.

    And he's, um, visited by his friend, kin, the police, the maid, and all sorts of people who happen to be in this like very small room. But it turns out that during his kind of feverish ramblings, he said a few things that related to the murder. He didn't make it obvious that he had anything to do with it, but he said quite a few words that had something to do with it.

    Nonetheless, none of the people really suspected here that he had anything to do with the [00:59:00] murder. Chapter four, then the doctor arrives on the scene. So it's now the doctor Zukin Konik of the maid and maybe someone else in the room. Basically the doctor and Zukin talk about the murder because it's, you know, big local news that two people were murdered in this house.

    Just around, uh, across the corner they report how the police are, you know, interviewing suspects and getting the investigation going again, no one's here suspecting us Nik off at all. Um, but interestingly, they actually get the story of what happened pretty accurately. So Zaomi pretty much summarizes what happens, and it's almost exactly what happened.

    So they already have managed to pretty much. Recreate what happened. And they mentioned that maybe someone even saw the murderer. 'cause there's always lots of people around there. Um, in chapter five, then we get a visit from a new man, a strange man who just arrives and who no one knows, and it's losing the, the, [01:00:00] what's the word, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: fiance.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Thank you. Um, the fiance of Nikko sister, he seems to be, he's, I don't actually know whether he's particularly good looking per se, but he seems to have really tried to make an effort to impress Nikko. He really dressed in his best clothes and was very, very well groomed and all this kinda stuff. In any case, Konik Koff is, uh, as in the entire book, just completely unbearable.

    And basically he doesn't, in the beginning, he's just very rude to him and ignores him and pretends to be in his feverish hallucinations. But then as they keep talking. As everyone keeps talking about the murder that happened and all this kinda stuff, I can't remember exactly what happens, but at the end he kind of throws loose out and people are considering whether he may even ruined the entire engagement to his sister or whatever's going on there.

    Then in the sixth chapter, Konik Off decides that he can't continue living like this with this kind of guilt, [01:01:00] and he says he wants to end it all and basically there are two ways that he can do that. First would be through suicide. The second would be by handing himself into the police, and he kind of considers both in this chapter he the suicide.

    He witnesses a suicide or an attempted suicide where a woman jumps off a bridge into the river and is then rescue the police or some man, I can't remember. And I think when he sees that, he decides against that. And also he. Throughout this chapter. He really, basically, he doesn't, he considers confessing, but he never quite has the guts to do it.

    So he just behaves incredibly weirdly to the policeman who he happens to meet in a bar. And then he also visits the flat in which he murdered the woman. And, you know, just walks about, um, the flat's being renovated by people. And he again, behaves incredibly, uh, he basically provokes almost people to bring him, to get him to the police, but doesn't say why at this point people are still just very confused by him and [01:02:00] his behavior.

    Uh, but no one actually so far really suspects too much. But then in chapter seven, it seems like we get quite a plot twist in the first part, Oscar Nikko met this drunken man who basically told him that he, you know, drank away his, his. Fought and his standing in society and made his entire family miserable.

    That man now happens to get, uh, run over or something like that by a, basically he falls drunk into the street and then a few horses run him over. Uh, Nikko happens to be there. He recognizes the man, brings him home to his family, and, and the man dies. And also, I can't remember, maybe this also already happened in chapter six, I can't remember, but Quin kind of eludes that the policeman is starting to have some weird thoughts about Nikko.

    He doesn't explicitly say that the policeman is considering [01:03:00] whether Oscar Nikko might have something to do with the murder, but he at least strongly alludes to it. Yeah. And then the, the, the, the seven chapter ends with it seems Oscar Knik Coff's entire mood changed. Somehow he felt. Kind of uplifted or had new life spirit or felt a purpose to living or something when he saw the, one of the daughters of this drunken man, and I think he gave her all his money, all that kind of stuff.

    And this whole act at least kind of shook him out of this frenzy that he's been having for basically part one and two. And that's kind of where we are. And that was more than two sentences per chapter. God, that took ages to say, that was like 10 minutes. I, maybe I should write this out next time because it actually, I didn't plan to say this much.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, it is probably a good idea to be very concise and to stick to, I mean, it's, it is interesting, but it's probably in [01:04:00] terms for the, uh, for the purpose of the podcast a bit too, too long of a summary. So yeah. First, um, impression of second part. My, my impression was like he was like, for the most part, just completely out of his mind and it's almost like, kind of like a kafkaesque situation.

    So that as a reader, I sometimes wasn't sure whether people were actually here, whether he was hallucinating because it starts with, um, him thinking then the land lady beon outside of his store. However, he doesn't think about going outside looking or helping her and then, and then turns out that this had never happened and all of a sudden there lots of random people coming and going.

    And it just, in combination with his state of mind, one wonders this is actually happening and what are they doing here? It just seems so surreal in a way [01:05:00] that. Um, they're just like not leaving him alone. It almost, for me, it felt a bit like they were his kind of like obsessive thoughts or voices. It wouldn't leave him alone when in fact, um, it seems like they were actually there.

    Um, his friend and the doctor and then the made, but it's not really, I mean, um, at least for me it wa wasn't really clear why all of a sudden all these people were there and had such a big interest in in him. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. It's interesting you say that because I, I mean, when, you know, I wrote down, it's like after reading each chapter, I wrote down like a few bullet points just so I remember the plot points to summarize it.

    And I also wrote like a few other things just down while sort added. And one thing I wrote down after chapter two is like. Okay, what's real? What's fiction or, uh, what's, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: what's real, what's, what's not real as like a theme, but then somehow it is, it's interesting that you say that, but I never actually, [01:06:00] after that thought about it for the rest of the part.

    I mean, it is true. Like it seems like in part one, no one, like he was left alone almost completely the entire time. And now suddenly there's always, I mean, it's always described as this tiny room and now there's like usually four people in or something. But yeah, I think I agree with you. I think all of this actually happened.

    I mean, so Lucy visiting is very expected almost. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, we didn't even mention his mom and his sister arrived right at the end. That's actually how the chapter ends at. They end his room. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And then he comes back. Yeah. Um, but that's all kind of part already established part one, right? That his sister and his mother come down, Lucy is arriving.

    So yeah, that all make sense. And it kind of, I mean, I'm kind of surprised that the friend suddenly started. Caring him so much because they hadn't seen each other for four months or something. And it seemed like they weren't super close. And yeah, Konik was just so weird [01:07:00] that I'm surprised the friend even bothered 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: looking.

    So this is where I thought there must be some agenda of his friend, whether this friend wants to take a cut off the money or 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: which money. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: So first it's the money that he's being sent by his mom, which his friend uses to buy Konik off in new clothing, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: which is what you do as a friend. You buy clothes for each 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: other.

    Yeah. Nobody that's I you just like. He just went out and, and got some new clothing. Um, and I was wondering, is he going to keep some of the money as in kind of like, you know, a commission? Um, but he didn't, he in turn returned all the change? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. And I don't think, well, the thing is, uh, just briefly, initially, I don't think he knew about any of this, right?

    He just wanted to visit his FI mean, so here's the big question, right? What exactly did Nikko say in those three to four days? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Because all we know is [01:08:00] that Nikko goes to the, has this first day where he goes to the police, then he goes home, starts hallucinating. Then three or four days, we don't really know what happened.

    All we get is this reconstruction afterwards about them like saying like, oh, you did this thing or that thing. So I don't, I mean, the thing is I guess the friend did initially visit Nikko, I think just because I wanted to see him because he didn't know anything about any of this, right? He nikk just came to him.

    Bathed weirdly and left. I think that was all that happened. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So I think the initial visit at least, was out of being a friend, but, Hmm. Yeah. I wonder what happened in that time in between. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Yeah, that's what I've been wondering as well. So does he know, does, does a friend know more than, than he says he knows?

    Because it's almost like if you would know about the murder and the stealing of the money and, um, whatever was in these boxes, [01:09:00] then he might, this might be the reason, because it might be he's got leverage now and he'll be like, okay, you know, you give me half or I'm gonna tell the police. So, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: but he could already have done that, so, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: but maybe he doesn't know where the money is or, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: well, yeah, but he could have already told us, gonna go like, Hey, where is it?

    You know? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yes. But then there are other people around. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Ought to be fair. One big question. So, Hmm. This is interesting. So I was gonna look of hid the stuff then went into three to four days. So maybe it's not even there anymore. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Maybe the friend already has it, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: but then you wouldn't stick around, right?

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Maybe he thinks he has more. I don't know. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But I don't know. So what I find interesting, actually, uh, this is really interesting. So I didn't think about any of this while I read it or whatever wrote notes. But here's an interesting thing, right? The, as [01:10:00] I said earlier, the friend, it's the, so this is one thing I actually wrote down.

    Kin, constructs, the murder perfectly. He says, oh, this must have happened. The murder must have hit there. Then they went down. You must have gone down into the empty flat hit there behind the thing. Everyone went up. Then he went down. He got the like spot on. That happens after three, four days of raving. He.

    So maybe he does know more. I don't know. It is, it's bit difficult for me to, so the first thing is, of course, this is Russia in the 19th century, so maybe going out buying clothes to a friend is just a normal thing that chaps do. Maybe if someone's ill, you have to stick around. I don't know like exactly what the rules are here, but it is all a bit weird.

    But maybe he's just a nice guy. He seems to, you know, he has this party that he throws. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: He might just be very sociable guy. Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I, I wonder also if, if everything like the plot should be taken literally in a sense because it could also be, um, and I think this is something I alluded to at the beginning, [01:11:00] this kind of like feeling of people.

    Just being so intrusive and not leaving your space. And, you know, if you think about his room, maybe also a bit of his, um, mind and there are constantly people around and he just wants him to leave. He just wants be alone. And he that right? He says like, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I just wanna be left alone. Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. So maybe this is just like this like friend that does well or means well, but then it's just constantly there and just doesn't leave him.

    It could also be potentially seen a bit as, um, um, a meta 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: metaphor 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: metaphor. Like, something sounds wrong here for, for something that's just so intru intrusive. Although it kind of like, it's not necessarily in itself a bad thing, but it's just, um, you can't get rid of it. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. But yeah, they just won't leave him alone if anything he says.

    So, I mean, but then again, like [01:12:00] what the friend's supposed to do, right? He clearly sees that Nik cough is not well at all. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, yeah. Yeah. Do you have more on that point or 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: No? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. Um, so I want, so this is just a really irrelevant thing that I just kept wondering about in this part, which is, why are there so many Germans in this book?

    It's somehow, he has the German hat. There's the, in the police, the German lady, there's another German couple that owns the house in there. They, him and Ko are supposed to translate German books, just like, why German? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: But I think, uh, I think this is historically know during that time the Austrian and German.

    Um, this, uh, like the, the Austrian empire was still quite, quite big. A lot of German speaking people that, people say 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Germans, right? Not Austrian. Yeah, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And assume, 

    but 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: like, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah, I dunno whether that was a [01:13:00] No, they would've, I dunno what they would say, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: but like, yeah. Just so again, like my interpretation was that historically, you know, like that there would've been generally the case that German, the German culture had a maybe a bigger standing.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I mean this was after like, uh, like go to Beov and all that kinda stuff, right? Yeah. This was also before Russia really had a huge culture of its own. So if all the Russian composers you can think of basically started with Dostoevsky and the novelists. So there was, I mean there were, yeah, it kind of all started with.

    Like, I mean they had, um, the, the big famous, uh, Pushkin is the big Russian poet, I think. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But it kind of all started like towards all these people were later. So maybe it's just a cultural thing that Russia was, I mean, I don't know, thought the history, but I think it hadn't existed in its state for that long.

    So, I [01:14:00] dunno. Maybe it was like a new country and the Yeah. But I was, and anyway, one reason also I wanted to talk about this is that one thing that I find found weird. So, you know, last time I said that the translation works very well. Mm-hmm. And it kind of captures the spirit and everything. So one thing that I found, um, tricky is the accent of the German woman in the first chapter.

    I dunno whether you remember that. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: The 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: accent I can look says no. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: No, I don't remember her accent. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So there's this woman who's just being obnoxious in the police station, or I can't, well not obnoxious, but she's in the police station and I can't remember what she wants, but he writes in kind of German accent, right?

    So it reads like no noise or no fighting in my house. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And that's what she says in English. That's on page, yeah. 121. So like instead of there, it's [01:15:00] ZER, right? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, z No scandal, blah blah. So, so like the accent thing works, but one thing I find really weird, and I don't know what exactly he's trying to do here, is the sentence structure is bizarre, but in a non-German way.

    So, for example, there's a sentence here where she says. I mean, I can't remember exactly what it's about, I think. Yeah. Anyway, the sentence is zen. He pot take and begin pushing everyone behind mid pot and zen. He, pot take is not anything a German would ever say. Right. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I actually, um, it stood out to me as well, but I, I just thought, you know, sometimes when you try to speak in a foreign language and you try to get the sentence structure right, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: do so that's, yeah.

    So that's what I was, so this is one thing I was really wondering about because, so I dunno what, whether the Russian even has this in there, I'm assuming it would be kind. [01:16:00] Yeah, I think, I'm assuming the Russian has already this kind of fake German accent or German accent in it. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But the weird thing here is that, so we're reading a book in English, right, where we have a German accent, but the, the, the sentence structure is not anything a German would ever say.

    You would not say zen. He potter take, you would say zen. He takes aot. Like that's how you'd say in German, right? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, it's, it's not done ar I don't even know what s supposed to mean. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Um, but do you think that's such a big thing? You know, because we make mistakes when we speak in a foreign language, so it could just be like, you know.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. But you'd make, you'd make mistakes that say this. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: No, necessarily I can, I can try to speak French and I know the French sentence structure is different to the German one, so no, something is different, but I will can still get it wrong. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, but you'd get it wrong in a German way. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: No, I could be like.

    Not [01:17:00] necessarily. I can change a case in, in term. I would say like this, I know it's different, I'm gonna change it around and it could still be wrong, but I mean, I don't think this is a bit big. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: No, it's not a big point. It's just something I was, uh, I was confused by. So here's a question. Do you think Oscar Nikko wants to be caught by the police?

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Oh, I think this is a question. I think, um, it's a bit ambivalent, I think. He can't deal with the guilt and the situation of like having to lie and having to like, he's completely out of his mind so he can't deal with the situation. And in his, in many ways it would be a relief for him to be found out, put into prison, judged, punished, et cetera.

    So I think a part [01:18:00] of him just wants to get out of this horrible, horrible situation and be relieved of, of whatever. Yeah, the guilt in a sense that will be pump punished, but then there's this other part in him. Which is obviously also scared and, um, of being found out and, um, the consequences so would follow and still wants to get away with it.

    So I think he's in split minds about it. Or maybe not even minds, maybe it's not even something that he can consciously or explicitly voice, but definitely on an emotional level, he seems, seems to be torn. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Would you agree? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. So what what really struck me throughout the entire parti is just how bad he is and not being suspicious.

    Like no one thinks anything of it, right? It's just this, [01:19:00] okay, so I can understand when he goes to the police that he's, and he hasn't been in a proper state of mind for. Probably weeks. Right. But definitely not for days when he murders the, the woman and he goes to the release and then they start talking about it.

    I can understand that he maybe loses his mind then and starts fainting. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I think that's understandable. And that basically gives him a perfect excuse for just staying in bed for a week and being ill. Right. Like he's in bed and people think he's ill, he could just lie there and not do anything. But as soon as anyone mentions this murder, he just loses his mind every time.

    Hmm. Like as soon as they say the murder, he just jumps up out of bed or something. Like, he has such a great way to just lie there and not say anything, but he just can't 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: be. Yeah. But yeah, he's, he is not rational at all [01:20:00] and he is definitely not in control of his emotions and. The, the inner, I don't know, like turbulent of like emotions and thoughts and, um, you like, I wonder also to what extent this is kind of like, um, if you would know about like, um, literature this time or like art this time.

    To what extent? This is like a, um, a character of the time because of it's so not in control and so torn and emotional. And very angry and then very confused. And he's obviously like a very extreme character in, in some sense. I don't know already where I'm going with this, but, but it's definitely not like a depiction of a, you know, like a rational collected person [01:21:00] who's planned a murder now carries it through and takes the right steps and precautions.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: No, definitely. But I mean, so there is of course that, that basically nothing that he does is thought through or planned or executed well. But he does, like, short of actually saying, I murdered the person. He pretty much does almost every, like, almost everything he does is really suspicious once you know that he committed the thing, right?

    Like once you have that thought, maybe he did it, then you realize almost everything he did. Like when he went to the policeman, I was like, oh, you wanna know where I'm reading these newspapers? And the policeman's like, what? No, like you're reading newspapers. Like, I don't care. And he's like, he's really, I feel like he.

    I mean, you know, that that conflict within him that you said earlier, he, he really wants to just be freed of this guilt. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But he also kind of doesn't, but then I, I wonder at some point whether he may be, he's not, he doesn't quite have the guts to actually almost go through with confessing his crime, but then [01:22:00] he basically does as much as he can in the hope almost, that people will just figure out what's going on.

    I mean, yeah. I also wonder, yeah, that's one thing. Another thing is, so, you know, he basically, one of the first, I mean, of course he was like, ill for three, four days, but one of the first things he does after murdering the woman is visit the scene of the murder again. Right. He pretty much, not immediately, but very early, goes back to where he murdered these two women.

    And so this might just be. Nonsensical TV stereotypes, but don't, isn't that what stereo serial killers do in all these TV things that they like wanna see the murder scene and all that kind of stuff. And this it, when I had that thought, it kind of really fit with what I said earlier that in part one, I mean like he really didn't need to murder someone to get money.

    He's doing a lot of things that makes me think that almost, that like [01:23:00] the money is almost more not an excuse to murder someone, but I don't know. Yeah, not entirely sure. But it is really weird to me how he went when faced with financial difficulty, decides to murder someone, and then as soon as he can, he basically visits the murder scene again.

    It's like, where's the blood? There was blood here. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. I don't know. I think for me it's like I, I don't think that he knows at all. He doesn't even know whether why he's, he's done what he's done really. And, and also, um, I think one, um, sentence that alludes to this fact that he might not even be himself aware why he's done it is on page 1 34, he says, suddenly he stopped and you quite unexpected and extraordinarily simple question had knocked him off course and filled him with bitter astonishment.[01:24:00] 

    If this whole thing really was done consciously and not stupidly, if you already did have a definite fixed aim, then how is it you still haven't taken one look inside the purse and don't even know what you've got? The very reason you accepted all this agony and consciously set out something so despicable, so vial, so low.

    So he, he himself, because this is kind of like an inner mon look. Yeah. Um, he's like, if, if this whole thing really was done consciously. So he, he doesn't know whether, like, whether he planned it and he kind of like talks to himself, well, if you, if you really had this in mind, why, and you wanted the money, why don't you even look inside now that you've got a pass?

    Uh, what? So, um, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: and why didn't he steal any of the valuable stuff? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yes. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Another thing that kin says is like, why, I mean, the police also said this, like, whoever did this is a complete amateur because he stole like the purse and [01:25:00] like, some really cheap stuff, but like all the expensive stuff that was basically in the next room or in the next, uh, cupboard, you just left there.

    So, yeah, it's like the whole financial thing doesn't really make any sense. 'cause he didn't, he hasn't made any money from this, right? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I think, I don't know, it's, it is maybe, maybe this is also like. I mean, it's a bit like sort of, the book was published in 1866, but that's like just before Freud really.

    But I'm just like thinking this before, before like 50 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: years before. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Yes, it is a bit too early. But it is, it is very much. Seems 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: 35, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Hmm, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: 40 years, not 50. Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. But it, it, it is a bit so early, but it seems a bit like he's very much. Talking about this like that we're not all conscious of our acts and we don't, like, we think we are, we are the author of our only story and we do [01:26:00] what we plan to do.

    This is what we kind of like tell ourselves. So this is what it feels like, but 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: mm-hmm. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Um, it's obviously not, not true. You know this about psychology. We know very little about the reasons for our actions, et cetera, but I think this almost seems like an extreme example of this. He doesn't, he doesn't know, and then he makes like some justifications, but then he also really wants to escape the situation and on some level, really regret, oh, I don't know whether he regrets, but he obviously feels guilty for what he's done and wants to, um, be judged or be punished accordingly.

    But on the other hand, he also is very worried and, and, and scared and doesn't want to be founder. But, um. What I think, and I'm, I keep coming back to this, the other people who I don't, who seem somewhat surreal [01:27:00] as sometimes, and almost to me as intrusive thoughts, maybe they can also be, on some level, be seen as, as people or his own inner judgments of himself, because I do get the sensation that, as we've already talked about it, that it might know more about him or his, his actions than, than we think.

    And there's one section is on page 142 where the made, she says, um, that no one came. That's, that's your blood yelling inside you. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Mm-hmm. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: So it's, it's, it is. Um, so, and before, before she says, um, that's blood, she finally answers softly as though speaking to herself. And then he's like, blood, what? Blood? And, and you, the first I thing [01:28:00] you think is like, oh my God, she knows.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: But then she's like, oh no, it's blood yelling inside you, as in like you're feverish. But I don't know, like it still seems like, what did she really mean? Does she know about the blood on his hands, or, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: oh, you think she might also know? Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I don't 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: know. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I'm just, yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. It's a question whether that's a kind of cheap device to create a bit of suspense, just to kind of like, you know, just to mess with the people going like, oh, she knows, or whether she, it's her, like this is the thing, right?

    She might. So, okay. There's this like that you said like this kind of, does she know this question that that sentence raises? Does she know that he killed someone? And there's like two ways in which this could be true, right? Either it's the character, uh, who's playing with him, who knows. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And it's playing with him.

    Or it's kind of the author who's just messing with a reader. [01:29:00] And I'm not sure which one it's, I would imagine more the latter, but 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I don't know. Or it could also be a third thing. It could be himself or No, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: it's a dichotomy. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Just an it's dichotomy. Um, or it could be himself who charges himself. Did, he reads judgment in, in everything Other people say, you know, like sometimes when you're already like critical about an aspect about yourself and then somebody mentions something and you hear only like, um, so like, um.

    We, so like sometimes we are very hyper aware of, of things we don't like about ourselves or things we are trying to hide or whatever. So we 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: like merging someone, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: like murdering someone. Um, so it could also be this, this third thing that they, like he, he perceives what they say in, in, in a certain way. Um 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: mm-hmm.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I mean obviously he is explicit, but this [01:30:00] could also be a bit of like a creative freedom to make this, um, uh, get his impression or whatever. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. The interesting thing is it's kind of difficult to dis angle or to decide or find out which of those interpretations it is because of course we read the entire book through, well, we don't really read it through ASCO's mind, um, because we are still like outside and can observe just how.

    Insane. He is most of the time, but we are still kind of seeing everything through his lens. Right? So it's, it can like when, when the audience feels like, oh, does she know, you know, you have the same thing, right? You immediately go like, oh no, does she know? But that's because we are viewing this scene through his lens.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Through knowing what happened. So it's kind of difficult to tell which, which one it is. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Although sometimes I feel as I agree with you that it's obviously mostly through his, his lens, he's a protagonist. Um, but I feel sometimes they're like passages in which it [01:31:00] reads almost like a, a play. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: You mean like when they talk or?

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: No, but in this, like, for example, I mean, this is maybe not the best, um, example of what, um, meant, but at, at the, after this blood incident. The last paragraph of this chapter is she went downstairs and returned a few minutes later with some water in a white earth and white drug. And is, is it Sometimes he's not like, um, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: he wouldn't have noticed that.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. But sometimes it feels like the, sometimes he leaves and the person he interacts with stays behind and we know about them. And 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, to be fair, that's what he will know too, right? She goes down and then he comes back. Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Maybe that was, that was a bad example. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But I still find interesting here how it's still kind of interesting how [01:32:00]you have the scene just before when he's like, it's the first time he really asked like, does this person, not the first time, but one of the first times that he really asked, does this person know that I murdered someone?

    And then you have this, like, as you said, I mean. The way you said it is almost like a description in a play, right? When you have like the acts, it's like very neutral. She went downstairs and return a few minutes later, which is like, the way it's written is almost too calm, considering the the emotional state he's in.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Yeah. So I think like, yes, and some symptoms a bit, bit like this. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Well, um, it's funny you mentioned earlier, uh, Kafka, right? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And, um, don't you think that basically part two here is almost this, or basically the process by Kafka is the same as the beginning of part two here? Just that he didn't actually do anything, [01:33:00] or maybe he did.

    I don't know, but it's very similar, right? Yeah. Where he just gets the, I mean, here the police sends him a letter when he is in bed and he's just summoned there. But yeah, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: for me it's also this, this situation of. Like, uh, it is very different. I mean, the content is different, but the situation of, um, Nikko wanting to be alone and the people just not leaving him, this frustration reminded me very much about the frustration in, um, yeah, the process where he wants to get somewhere, but he doesn't get anywhere and, um, or in the 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: castle.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. So I think it's, there's some, some level, there's, there's some similarities. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Kafka might have read Dostoevsky, who knows? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I might have done, yeah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: he pretty much definitely did read. I mean, that was like one of the big novelists to, or I don't know. I don't know whether Sevki always had this status, but I'm assuming, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Hmm.[01:34:00] 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, if you lived in Prague, you probably knew about Sevki, right? Yeah. I it, but some of the, also the general tone feels a bit similar. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um. Yeah. Uh, one thing I also found interesting is just how, you know how in, in part one, I just, I kept saying like, man, Oscar go really doesn't, like, he really didn't think this through.

    Like, it's just so poorly planned. I found it funny how like it takes like two days basically for the police to find out, like, yeah, whoever did this had no idea what he was doing. Yeah. Like they all said the same thing. Like, man, there's so many people around here. Um, the murderer, like someone visited the person.

    Like he got like, you know, it didn't take the money. It's just funny to me how like all these people also meet. You weren't like, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: yeah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: what did this guy think? Like, it's just done so poorly. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But yeah, [01:35:00] I mean there's one general point about has Scott and Niko's inability to actually do anything properly.

    That makes me wonder whether. This story has anything to do with morality. So initially I assumed, I always, so I'd heard before, okay, this guy murder someone and it's kind of justified, but not something like that. Mm-hmm. That's kind of the only thing I really heard about this before and I thought, okay, that's what it's, it's like about this moral question.

    Like, can you, is, can murder be justified? Or whatever, you know, something like that. But the thing is, the more I read about this is just, he's just so incapable of doing anything. Like if you have, I mean, it immediately made me think in, in, in opposition of, um, the play Terah by Fred and f where he, I mean that's basically, that is basically a dramatization of the trolley problem where a plane is captured by terrorists and they want to fly into the football stadium in Munich [01:36:00] and a pilot shoots down the plane, which at the time in Germany was illegal.

    You weren't, in that sense, allowed to kill people too. Not them kill more people. But in that case, you had you basically the, the entire what what f establishes in Terah is just this guy was completely capable. Like he knew what he was doing. This guy's completely sane, he's skilled, he's trained, he's educated.

    This is like one of the best pilots we can have. And he made a decision that's very difficult because this is a tricky moral question, right? But here we have a guy who's just so out of his mind all the time and incapable of doing anything that to me it almost like, it makes it impossible to talk about the moral question because he's just, God knows why he did this, right?

    As you said earlier, like he, um, I dunno whether this was just a misconception of the book that I had a vague misconception. I had a book before that this was kind of a, a question about of morality. But the more I'm [01:37:00] reading this, the more I'm thinking like, you can't make any, you can't question anything more about this just because.

    Person involved is so clueless and unplanned and unprepared and, um, that it's, it, it is, I mean, a psychological novel, which is what Doki is also usually described at. Right. A novelist who studies the human psyche. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. I know, I think this is probably a question, we can't really answer this at this point, like, um, or you probably need to judge the whole, the book as a whole, but I think comparing the two parts, definitely that question changed a bit for me because we talked about last week we talked about, um, how this, um, yeah, what it would be justified, et cetera.

    Right now it feels like nothing is, nothing good is gonna come out of this. [01:38:00] Um, so therefore 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Would be justified. But then it's also like the, the next question. Arises is do we charge the moral morality of an action based on its outcome? Right? He could have like planned to, to relieve, um, lots of people of the debt that, but then it didn't turn out as planned.

    But does that make his action and worse, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: which is how we there, there's actually I think a lot of question, uh, I dunno much about this, but I think there, I heard something once that it is kind of weird that, you know, in the law treats basically luck as an important factor in terms of how we treat people, right?

    Because if you, uh, if you drink a, like let's say you drink a bottle of vodka and drive a car and, um, nothing happens, but the police catches you, you get, [01:39:00] I mean, yeah, you get one sort of punishment, but if you then happen, if someone happens to be. Uh, crossing the road or something and you hit them, right?

    Which in both cases you just drank a bottle of, of vodka and you were completely drunk when you were driving. The, the, the coincidence of whether someone happens to be crossing the road or not will determine basically whether you get a manslaughter or where, or maybe even murder, I dunno. Or whether you get drunk driving, right?

    So there is this kind of weird thing where the, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: but that's not a very good example. No, because if you, if you haven't drunk a bottle of Oscar and you drive from A to B, you don't get, um, any form of punishment. Not at all. But if somebody happens to cross the road at a bad time and you run over them, then you might, there are consequences, right?

    So, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: okay, then let's, okay, let's use the, okay, [01:40:00] let's make the example more extreme. The police catches someone who was drunk driving and who drove over the pavement, right? Let's say there was a bus stop or something. The person was completely drunk, drove over the pavement, and then swayed, sway, swayed, swayed back onto the road and nothing happened because no one was there.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: But it's the same, like you can't, like, the reason why this isn't a good comparison is because the action is different and it's the same if you take away the alcohol. You would, if you drive over the pavement like this, you probably get some sort of, um, punishment or fine or whatever. If somebody stands on the pavement, it is more severe consequences.

    So. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But then again, okay, if you take the drunk driving out of it, yeah. You, you accidentally for whatever reason, drive over the pavement and don't hit anyone. You might get some sort of fine for that, for not driving [01:41:00] properly, but if someone's there and you kill them anyway, the point is I'm trying to make is just that in the law you have this thing where coincidence is coincidences, determine how severe the punishment is, even though the person might have done the same thing.

    And it seemed to me that you were kind of alluding or talking about that when you said like the outcome of the bad act and it is a different thing. Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I think what I was alluding to is, let's say I, so he plans to murder this woman, and he could have, when he first started planning, um, the murder, he, the reason for doing this could have been like, okay, I'm not gonna only help my own financial situation, but for killing her, a lot of people are going to be freed of their debts.

    So I'm, and this could have been the main goal, right? So three relief people of their debts, and [01:42:00] he goes there and murders her and either it works and everybody is released with the debts or something, which he couldn't, wasn't in control of. Let's say she had kind of like passed on all the debts that they had been already sold the debts to another person.

    So maybe another person was, is in, in hold of the, whatever the notes are called. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Oh, the monastery is, right. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Um, so maybe now it's just passed on and people are not afraid of their debts, but they're just owed to somebody else. So, and I think the question I, I raised was, does it make the action of murdering more immoral if there's no good outcome?

    So it is a, a bit like, you know, like you could have maybe murdered [01:43:00] Hitler at a certain time and you would've saved a lot of people's lives. But what if after murdering Hitler, you realized that. It wasn't actually him, but I don't know, like you wouldn't saved, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: you mean actually when you, you murder the wrong person almost Charlie Chaplin.

    Just 'cause he looked similar, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: for example. Um, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: don't murder Charlie Chaplin please. People, I mean, he's dead. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Never. No, but, but I, I guess this is like, um, maybe extreme examples, but does it, if I am or, or let's say with the trolley dilemma, I'm intending to, um, save people by, um, pushing somebody else in the tracks, but then maybe it doesn't, doesn't work and 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Right.

    Yeah. Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: The person I pushed on the tracks gets killed as [01:44:00] well as the other five. 

    Get 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: six people. Yeah. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Like, um, yeah, I mean, a bit of a different example, but, um. What was my initial point? Yeah, it, I, I guess just a question whether, um, his action, because last time we talked about is it, is it morally justified to, to murder somebody if, if it's for a greater good, um, maybe that was his plan or his goal to start out with, but then things didn't go according to plan and now it's in a big mess.

    Is it, is this question still hold or not? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: You mean like could, how should we say? I mean, the whole question of whether the murder could be justified, if he helps other people and whether this has changed now, whether the fact that something went wrong or that kinda stuff kind of [01:45:00] presupposes that it's okay to murder someone to save other people.

    Right. Um. If you don't agree with that, then it doesn't matter what the outcome is, right? Like whether it worked or didn't work or whatever, then it doesn't matter. So in a way, I think the, I think the question you're raising kind of assumes now that it might be okay in certain circumstances. Um, if I understand it correctly.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I don't know. I don't think that I, I have an answer to this question. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, but I, what I mean is just like that, I, I guess I'm just agreeing that like we're just moving completely away from that question because it's just, it's not really what the book's about right now. The book is about in part two, about, well, the punishment, I guess in this case is psychological, his own guilt, his own, I mean, it's difficult to tell whether it's guilt or he's just afraid of getting caught.

    I don't know. It's a difficult thing with us. If you dunno what he's thinking because he's probably not thinking a [01:46:00] lot, I. It's really, it's really weird. Like I feel like I've had a, a lot of interesting thoughts this recording, and yet I feel like I'm not making any sense almost in anything I said. Like I, I feel like I'm very incoherent, but it's, some are still interesting, but, yeah.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Well, I think a lot, a lot happened in this part actually. It's, it wasn't as linear as the first part of your 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Uh, actually I have, uh, two, actually, just one question then. I think we might, we could maybe do this at the end of each segment. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Or I don't know, do you have other points?

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: No, that's fine. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: No. Okay. Um, then my quest, uh, this is maybe something we could do at the end of each segment. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Which is what do you think is gonna happen in part, in the next part? What's gonna happen in part three? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I really don't know. Um, I think after this part is like, it's, it's hard to tell. I, so 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: part three is also like a hundred pages, right?

    All the [01:47:00] parts are roughly the same length. Just to clarify, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: I don't think he's gonna be found out, but, um, there is gonna be something about his sister family situation because I, I still don't quite understand why he's so angry at the fiance. So maybe angry is not the right word. Why? Why he's disgusted, upset by him.

    Or upset. Upset, or whatever it is. And I feel like I haven't been given the whole, provided the whole picture in a way. In a sense. Um, so I think there's be, 'cause so far he 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: seemed fairly normal, right? He was trying to make an impression. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Didn't seem to be anything really wrong with him. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah.

    And also he didn't expect, he didn't expect being greeted in that way. So. Yeah, exactly. There, there seems to be, he 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: seemed to try to [01:48:00] make an impression despite everything going differently than they expected. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I agree. So I think the family's the, I mean, it ends in the sister and mother being in the place.

    So I'm assuming like part one is just gonna take off. We left, so I'm assuming the next chapter's gonna be about Mom and Sister and Oscar, Nik, cough and Lucian. Um, or at least, maybe not Lucian, but at least the first three. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So, okay. What do you I think, okay. Yeah, I agree. I don't think it's gonna be found out, but I think the police is going to, I.

    At least explicitly suspect him. Maybe call him in or something. Like, it's, I think it's gonna get started at least. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, in part two we had this like very strong hints that the policeman is thinking some thoughts about Oscar Nikko. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, they always say like, maybe he's going crazy, but I think talking about the murder, because they must know by now also that he's one of the ERs.

    So yeah, I [01:49:00] think they're definitely going to, I think that's gonna develop an increase, but I don't think, yeah, he's not gonna get arrested or anything yet. Um, so one thing is, this is actually something I, I noticed even it's, it's was at the beginning of reading part two, which is, you remember we were talking about the book, right?

    The physical book of the cover. If you turn it around on the backside, it's also a drawing. I always assume that was a sister. When you actually look at the fine print, it says, uh, the first picture is called Us Knik of Dream, the Front. Mm-hmm. And the back is called Eska, which is one of the nicknames for Sonya or whatever her name, actual name is the daughter, the prostitute daughter of the guy who just died and who he just spent time with.

    Right. So the fact that she's on the back cover of the book suggests to me she's gonna play a large role in this book, and she hasn't so far. So I think [01:50:00] she is maybe, I think this part, she might make a proper entrance. So far she's just been a side character. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That's my detective work.

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. Cheating a bit. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Hey, I, it's the, I mean, it's the back cover of the mic. Um. Okay. Uh, what do we think about the friend? See the friend and the doctor? Are they gonna be in it? 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Did you say the friend and the doctor? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. The two people. Like, are they, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: um, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: lots 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: be in it. Yeah. I think, I mean, especially the friend is so involved already, so I can't really see him leaving easily, but I 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: think the doctor won't, 'cause I think he's getting better now, right?

    Physically. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. One thing also, this is like when you read the list of the characters in the beginning, there's quite a few, there's like a few where you thought like, well, after I read [01:51:00] part one, it's like, why are these people in there? So they must make some sort of appearance. Like one was the, the land, the German land lady, whatever is somewhere in here.

    Um, wait, what was it? Amalia. Ivanna. The S and Le landlady. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Mm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I think she might make a bit of at some point. 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: Yeah, we'll see. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. Um, yep, so that was part two. Next week we're discussing part three. Uh, 

    Antonia Eisenkoeck: sounds good. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Hopefully as insightful and even more coherent.