16. Brock Bastian: Pain, cooperation, and the benefits of difficulty

Brock Bastian is a professor of psychology at the University of Melbourne whose research focuses on pain, happiness, and morality.  

In this conversation, we talk about Brock's work on how and why pain is meaningful. We talk about Brock's work on pain and cooperation, reproducibility in social psychology, his books The Other Side of Happiness, the value of doing shit jobs, Brave New World, and much more.  

BJKS Podcast is a podcast about neuroscience, psychology, and anything vaguely related, hosted by Benjamin James Kuper-Smith. New conversations every other Friday. You can find the podcast on all podcasting platforms (e.g., Spotify, Apple/Google Podcasts, etc.).  

Timestamps  
0:00:05: Pain and cooperation  
0:18:22: When is a paper ready?  
0:22:37: Reproducibility: when can you trust a paper?  
0:28:44: Discussing the making of Brock's book The Other Side of Happiness  
0:42:39: When should something be easy and when is it good for something to be difficult?  
0:52:59: Brock's dog adds a valuable comment  
0:54:01: The value of doing shit jobs  
0:57:23: What's dystopian about Huxley's Brave New World?  
1:03:23: Is something like Soma possible and would people use it?  


Podcast links  

Brock's links  

Ben's links  


References 
 Bastian, B. (2018). The other side of happiness: Embracing a more fearless approach to living. Penguin UK.   
Brock's debate with David Pearce: https://www.pairagraph.com/dialogue/b5578a55839c4218a03c2a43e83f4076 
Bastian, B., Jetten, J., & Ferris, L. J. (2014). Pain as social glue: Shared pain increases cooperation. Psychological Science. 
Bastian, B., Jetten, J., Thai, H. A., & Steffens, N. K. (2018). Shared adversity increases team creativity through fostering supportive interaction. Frontiers in Psychology. 
Huxley, A. (1932). Brave New World. 
Leknes, S., & Bastian, B. (2014). The benefits of pain. Review of Philosophy and Psychology. 
Wiltermuth, S. S., & Heath, C. (2009). Synchrony and cooperation. Psychological Science. 
Xygalatas, D., Mitkidis, P., Fischer, R., Reddish, P., Skewes, J., Geertz, A. W., ... & Bulbulia, J. (2013). Extreme rituals promote prosociality. Psychological Science.  

  • [This is an automated transcript with many errors]

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: [00:00:00] I have a story, a little personal story that I think relates quite well to your, um, psych science paper about cooperation and pain. About two years ago, I joined a rowing club, and so it was just a beginner's club and there were, I dunno, five people or so we were in it. Uh, we didn't know each other. And so like in the beginning of each training session, it was kind of a bit, um, maybe distant, like none of us were super awkward or anything, but it was kind of slightly distant and we didn't talk too much or whatever before the actual training started anyway.

    Then one day, um, our trainer said, shall we do a one K test row? Uh, so one K test row will take, uh, well, if you like world record speed, it'll take you two and a half minutes or something. If you are vaguely fit, it will take you under four minutes. But like, anyway, so. I dunno if you've ever rode for time, anything like that.[00:01:00] 

    Um, but it's very unpleasant. It's probably the most un unpleasant sport almost. I know. 

    Brock Bastian: Mm mm 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And yeah, I haven't, anyway, so we, we asked our trainer like, um, what would be a really good time for one K test? And he didn't really want to answer the question, but he, after to ask him a few times, he said like, well, if you can do it under three minutes, I'll be very impressed.

    Brock Bastian: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: For anyone listening, don't try and row a kilometer to under three minutes, it's not a good idea. Um, anyway, so we started like super fast, as you know. Yeah. And then we had the fly and die, which is very common in rowing anyway, so it was a very unpleasant experience. Um mm-hmm. We all kind of did it for our own, we didn't do it as a team per se, we just kind of wanted to see how hard we can do.

    Brock Bastian: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Anyway, after those like, you know, three to four minutes of pretty intense pain, after that, the atmosphere and the team changed completely. 

    Brock Bastian: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, team is almost the wrong word, but we. At first it was, it, it really was just like a few people doing a kind of thing on their own and [00:02:00] suddenly, like everyone was so much friendlier and warmer towards each other.

    Brock Bastian: Yeah. And 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah, it was funny when I then read your paper like, uh, two years ago or something, I thought like, oh, that's exactly the way it was then when somehow this shared painful experience made us bond in this way. 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah. Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So I wanted to say that, tell that little story just to kind of introduce the two topics of pain and, um, corporation.

    Um, could you maybe for like, has, doesn't have to be long, just briefly summarize your psych science paper about pain and corporation 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah, sure. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And kind of what you found. 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah. So, um, so in that, in that paper we, uh, we had people, we exposed groups of people to very similar activities. Although in one condition they were painful.

    So, um, we, we had people either put their hands in, uh. Buckets of, of ice water or in, uh, buckets of, of room temperature, water. And, and all, all the studies were, we used that we, we had a little [00:03:00] container in the bottom, which we had people kind of put these fishing sinkers little ball, little sort of metal balls into the container in the bottom.

    Uh, uh, was the reason for that was we, we realized that, um, asking people to do something for as long as they could, um, when it was painful, was obviously gonna be a lot shorter than asking 'em to do something for as long as they could when it wasn't painful. Um, so the control condition could have gone on for a very long time.

    So we, but, but, but people couldn't just hold their hand in the, you know, in the water for no good reason or have no sense of what they were doing. So we had this little task, and in one, one case, we just told 'em to stop after, after 90 seconds. That was the, and, and you know, how many, how many of those ball bearings did they put into the, into the, um, the container in the bottom and in the, in the, um, in the ice water condition.

    They just did it for as long as they could, which tended to be about, you know, between, well, I think it's something about 40 seconds or 30, somewhere around there. Anyway. Some people went for longer. Um, actually the ones who went for longer were the male participants when it was a female experiment of [00:04:00] mostly.

    Um, so, so we found in the first study that that, that after doing those, those tasks that the, the groups that had shared in the painful tasks, so, and we had a, we had, in that, in that particular paper, we had two tasks. There was the, the ice water, and then there was also asking people to hold a, a 90 degree angle with their legs, like leg squat up against the, the, the wall, uh, actually against the desk, which becomes very painful, very quickly in the, in the, you know, in the quads.

    So we, we had people either do that or balance on one foot, which also was somewhat technical. Not, not, not very, but enough so that they felt they were doing something and, and then again, we just stopped 'em after sort of 90 seconds. So tho those tasks both went for about the same period of time. And then after that we asked people to, to list, you know, respond to a whole lot of questions about how bonded they felt as a group, how much they felt they shared important similarities, how much they felt they could trust other people in the group.

    And we've, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I'm sorry, these [00:05:00] were, people were doing this as a group, not individually as you usually have in the experiment, 

    Brock Bastian: right? That's right. In this, in this case, because it was, yeah, had to be all about how people were actually responding to each other in, in, in the group context. Um, so they rated, they rated, um, yeah, their other group members how they felt about them on the, on this measure.

    And so we found that, um, that after the, after the painful, uh, activities, um, people rated the other group members, as you know, I, I guess on now what we call bonding. There was a high level of bonding. And, and we just, again, that was about seven questions that we, we put together, which really illustrated for us that, that that concept.

    Um, and then in, in the next study, we did the same thing again, except this time we had a, uh, a cooperate a cooperation games. We wanted to see whether or not this would translate into actual behavior. And in that game, people could, uh, over six trials choose a number between one and seven. Um, if they chose a, a seven, I think they could get about, um, can't remember the number, eight, $8 or something like that.

    Or, [00:06:00] or some, some amount like that. But, but only if everybody else chose a seven. And, and then if, if, if you chose a, but if you chose a seven and, and somebody else in your group chose a, chose a one. They would then get a, I think it was $4 20, whereas, um, you would now only get 60 cents. So the higher the number you chose, the more reliant you were on your group members to also choose high numbers for you to be able to do well.

    And if you all chose high numbers together, you would do, you'd do better. Um, but of course, you know, if people didn't trust other members in their group, choosing the low numbers meant they would back themselves and, you know, get a decent amount of money even if other people defected. So, um, so really it was a measure of, um, cooperation trust.

    So we found, again, in that study, the second study, that after sharing those painful activities, people chose higher numbers on average across those six trials, and therefore indicating that they, you know, that they had a higher level of cooperation and trust in the group. And, um, then in the third study, [00:07:00] we, rather than get them to do the, those, those strange activities, we got them to do just a, you know, a more every day.

    Not really every day, but you know, I guess people eat hot peppers, so we got them to eat hot peppers, uh, or, or a butterscotch, um, which is extensively a pleasant activity. And, um, and again, people, uh, people, you know, cooperated more after having shared that experience of eating. And these, these were quite hot.

    We, we made sure they were, um, they, they weren't mild. We gave people yogurt and things to try and cool down afterwards. But, um, yes, so, so we found again that, uh, that people cooperated more after, after engaging the painful activity. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Mm-hmm. Actually, maybe can we start, uh, can we, can you briefly explain like why this particular study?

    Because you don't, I mean, you work on pain rather than cooperation, right? Was it just to explore the social effects of people sharing pain or what precisely was the motivation there for you and your co-authors? [00:08:00] 

    Brock Bastian: So my, my whole motivation with the, with the pain research, uh, really I, I mean the, in the first, in the first instance, um, I probably stumbled across it more than anything and, uh, and started to realize there was something, something interesting about pain that hadn't really been examined.

    And, and I'd also been at the time doing some work around, uh, this, this notion of, you know, strong norms around the importance of happiness and, and how, where, where, you know, in context where people felt a, a, a significant pressure to, to experience and express happiness, they tended to actually experience more of the opposite.

    Um, and, and so one of the issues there is just the tendency to, you know, to overvalue those positive states and, and to devalue or not really see the value in more negative experiences in life. And, and so by the time, you know, we were doing this work, I'd really, I'd really sort of started to try and [00:09:00] explore really quite a range, um, somewhat un you know, somewhat differentiated range of positive upsides to, to painful experiences.

    And, and I, I was always interested in pain in a very broad sense, but, um, thought that, you know, if you, if you were going to explore that, then physical pain was probably the, you know, the first protocol. And to, to try and look at it in that way because it was a, again, it was something we could, we could study in the lab, we could induce it, um, in an acute sense.

    And, um, and I do think that's not, probably not all of, not all negative experiences, I don't think we would find, um, what we. We observed with physical pain in all negative experiences. But I do think that it does, you know, some of the things we found would, would likely replicate, um, you know, at least conceptually, um, across a range of negative human experiences, you know?

    Yeah. So, so that was, that was really where we were coming from. And, [00:10:00] and, and again, just looking quite broadly at, okay, well what are these, what are these sort of upsides? What are these benefits that, that pain, and again, we wrote a theory paper, um, earlier on around, around, you know, what we thought might be a range of benefits, um, that that could come from pain and drew on, um, drew on the available literature and, and the, the available theories to, to underpin those ideas.

    So again, we had a, a decent theory to, you know, a de a decent sort of theoretical perspective in terms of trying to explore some of these, these ideas. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, which paper is that theoretical. 

    Brock Bastian: Um, it's called the benefits of pain. I think. Um, it's, it was a personality and social psychology review. Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Okay. Yeah, I always put the, um, references in the description of the, of the episode so people don't have to search for the papers forever.

    So I'll put that in there too. 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah, sure. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, I want to talk a bit more about like different kinds of pain and when pain is meaningful, when not maybe more towards the end of the conversation, but now in terms of [00:11:00]the cooperation, I'm curious, like almost thinking it in terms of boundary conditions, like what kind of pain would increase cooperation between people?

    Because it seems to me that if, for example, one person is the sole cause of the pain inflicting on others or something, then that's probably not gonna be beneficial. Uh, so what do you think are the kind of main parameters here to that? Yeah, that lead to pain being beneficial rather than detrimental.

    Brock Bastian: Well, that's a very big question, um, with a lot of answers to it. I, I think, I mean, in in that sense, um, in the sense of the, the, the cooperation, the shared experience of it. Yeah. Obviously it needs to be shared now. I don't, I don't think that having one person inflicting on others, uh, I think actually that could work quite well.

    I think you actually see it in a lot of, um, a lot of organizations where there's a bad manager. Sometimes the teams actually become very cohesive as a result of that. So I don't think it matters. I think what matters is that certainly if [00:12:00] there, if, if, if, if there's somebody, you know, if the group is inflicting on, well, now, now there are other effects, right?

    So we know that, uh, when people have to go through pain in order to join a group, so the group may inflict pain on me. That's a different effect. That's a dissonance sort of effect. And, and, and small classic studies have shown that. So there, there are a range of mechanisms in there, and I look, to be honest, I've never really, we've never really articulated fully what the mechanism is for our work either.

    I have some, I have some best guesses at that. But, um, you know, I, I think, I think the mechanism is less clear, but there are certainly other, other effects probably with different mechanisms that, um, you know, that, that, that show again, that going through pain can lead people to feel more committed to groups, um, even when the group is doing it to them.

    So I think it's a very, there, there is certainly context where it would go the other way. Um, I think, you know, when, when perhaps groups feel traumatized by pain or, uh, you know, in, in [00:13:00] a way that, that there are perhaps other factors that lead groups to splinter in response to it. But I don't, I'm not sure I could articulate that in, in, in one in, in one sort of go.

    And there's probably a lot of, a lot of things in there that could actually change how it plays out. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I mean, you mentioned that you are, um, not particularly specific on the mechanism. That is the one question that I had. Um, why you think the, I mean, is it just that you, you see how people react under pain?

    Uh, that's what I think. Maybe just know a bit more about them or, 

    Brock Bastian: yeah. That's what I think is, I, I, I think that, I think it's actually a fairly grounding human, authentic type of experience. And so, you know, you, you kind of, when someone, you can't kind of keep up the appearances when you're in pain. You know, you're, you're all, you're all kind of, you know, and it's a, it's so, so, I, I, I think it's kind of, yeah, I, I think in a way when, when you share that experience, you do sort of, you do see people.[00:14:00] 

    Confronted with something that kind of breaks them down a little bit and they become very real. Um, it's very, you know, you can't not be but real when you're in pain. Um, and I think that's probably what leads to the increase in trust. Never really quite worked out how to measure that very effectively, but, um, that's what I think is probably happening.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 

    Brock Bastian: Could be other things too. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I had one question, which is fairly technical now, about just why you chose this particular corporation task. Um, 

    Brock Bastian: yeah. So it was used previously? Yeah, it was used previously and in a, um, a study, I'm just gonna forget the author's names and the name of the study, but it was, it was, um, around Synchrony.

    Synchrony and Cooperation. Um, and I'm just 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Oh, the one with the singing or? 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah, yeah. I'm just, I'm seeing, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I can't remember what it is. Wait, is it in your references? Otherwise I'll just put it in the description. 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah, yeah. I've just forgotten the descrip. Yeah. I'll 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: put it in the description. I know which one you mean.

    Yeah. 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah, so we, so I mean, I saw, we, we really, [00:15:00] um, having seen that paper I used basically just the same, exactly the same measure that I used. Ah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: okay. Okay. Um, yeah, because like one, I mean, I guess like in the totality of the paper and having the three experiments and the different measures and that kinda stuff, maybe this, the, the point I'm gonna make isn't super strong.

    Um, but like, one thing that just struck me is that in a way it's also a measure of risk more than anything else, right? Because you have the one safe option. 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And you have the, the more risky option where you can either bank basically nothing Yeah. 60 cents or $7 80, whereas the other is four 20. Um, so in a way, like it's, I mean like a, yeah, if you use like a simple task like this, which I think is a good idea, then, you know, it's very difficult to.

    Uh, separate all factors and only have this one. 

    Brock Bastian: Sure. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, yeah, but it did, it did struck me as slightly, I dunno, I assumed when I saw the title of the paper it would be like a prisoner s dilemma [00:16:00] or a poker goods game or 

    Brock Bastian: mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: It's not that different from it, but 

    Brock Bastian: No, no, it's not, it's not that decision.

    Yeah, no. Literally, literally it was, it was, was because it had been used in that previous work and, and that was a similar sort of study, a similar sort of approach. He was in groups looking at the effect of synchrony on, on groups. So I thought that was the, probably the best, the best, um, candidate as a, as a, a study to take and, and I guess use a different IV.

    Um, in in, in the use. Use, yeah. Try and try and obviously, you know, stay close to what had been done before. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. And that's just so you, it's established, you know, it works, that kind of thing. Mm. Or uh, I'm assuming it's the same with like the hand in ice water. 

    Brock Bastian: Mm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, like that kind of pain. Was it because it's easy to do in a lab.

    Um, I guess you need to call the water, but 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah, that's right. It's a few freezes, a lot of bags of ice sport. Um, no, no, it's, it's, well the cold pressor task [00:17:00] is, is a standard of pain induction. And, and look, there are other more technical ones. And of course the way that we induce pain in all these studies, the pain, the, the pain researchers sort of laughed at because they were very technical in how they would, again, they needed to be because they needed to really titrate the amount of pain that they gave people so that there was a, you know, they, they could actually show that changes in, that would lead to changes in some other sort of dependent variable.

    We, we were much more interested in just pain or no pain. So for us, it, you know Right. Having, whilst we, whilst we controlled the amount of pain, we certainly didn't control, like some pain researchers would. Um, we, we didn't You mean like with 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: heat? Uh, 

    Brock Bastian: yeah, that's right. Or simulation 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: or something. 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah. You can come up with some pretty controlled ways of inducing pain.

    Um, we never felt we needed to, to really go to that level, to, to, to examine the differences between pain versus no pain. Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Right. The kind of binary spin was enough. 

    Brock Bastian: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: It's obvious that it's not. Yeah. It's funny, like, to me that task always sounds when one, if you've [00:18:00] never done it, it sounds very like, what's the problem putting your hand in cold water?

    Oh, it, it's cold. Cold. It's really cold. And if you do that for a long time without moving 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Or barely moving. 

    Brock Bastian: I think I, I think I lasted for less than the average when I tried it, so. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Yeah. I only did it once. Can't remember. Oh no. Sorry. I was, I was control condition that was.

    Um, yeah, in a way I, the funny thing is I don't have too many questions about this corporation paper in a sense, because I think it's, uh, in a positive way, very straightforward and simple. 

    Brock Bastian: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, as in like it's, you know, clear manipulation, clear effect, you test it in few different ways, inducing the pain and measuring cooperation or social cohesion.

    Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. But by the way, is that a general, how do you view when you create an experiment, this kind of trade off between precision, simplicity and, you know, for example, you could, as in this case [00:19:00]said like, okay, we wanna do heat in a, not binary, but in continuous way. Mm-hmm. Um, or, I don't know, measure all sorts of different pains.

    Mm-hmm. Uh, different kinds of pain inducing pain. Especially asking because like, I'm like in my PhD, and I've often had this question like, when is a paper ready? When, yeah. Is it good enough when, like, for example, like with this kind of thing where you don't have a mechanism, I always feel like, well, you can't just show an effect.

    You have to also explain the mechanism. But that's of course a huge to task. 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah. Well, I mean, look, I don't, I don't think that, uh, you know, publishing a paper is the end, is the end of the road, right? I, i, I mean it's, it's, it's just one step. And, and, and so you publish it and then someone else is gonna come along, or you might come along and add to that, um, or tear it down again.

    Right? Um, so I don't, I don't see, I, I think, I think, you know, to, to publish something, you have to have enough evidence that, that at least makes it feasible to, to, to say what you're saying. But to, to think that in any given paper, you're going to find [00:20:00] absolute proof of the mechanism and the effect without any doubt at all.

    I, I don't think that's probably even real science. So, you know, I, I, my, my take on it is if we'll look at. You know, if, if you find something you feel fairly confident in, um, and, and it certainly seems to be hanging about in, in, in the, in the research that you've done, um, and it seems, yeah, it seems replicable, at least within a small, a small sort of sample of studies, then that's, that's sufficient.

    And of course, don't, you know, I wouldn't expect that it's not going to necessarily be debunked at some point. It may get debunked. One of the things I think that, you know, one of the, one of the risks I think, you know, um, in that as well is also, is also, you know, how much, how much, um, how much evidence do you have, even just anecdotally behind the research question.

    So you gave a great example at the beginning of a, of, of an anecdotal experience where you've actually seen this and, and experienced it. Right. And there's [00:21:00] plenty of those around. There's other research in. You know, on anthropological rituals which have shown similar sorts of effects. So when you cast your eye across quite a broad range of anecdotal examples, come other research, uh, directions and studies and you know, there, there's actually quite a collection of, of, of evidence that suggests that this is actually what one would observe.

    Now, whether or not you can replicate it exactly with the way we did it, or whether or not, you know, there's going to, you can show the mechanisms of the way we did it. You know, I think, I think that's just part of the picture. Um, I think, I think when it gets more, more shaky is when, um. Yeah. When you sort of go out on a, on a limb a little bit and, and perhaps you're showing an effect, which you is, is, is somehow even not intuitive, um, or, or is not something that is easily experienced or, or that there's not many anecdotal examples of, or you can't draw on other related research to, to show that this should be the case and, and, and then, then I suppose you want to be Yeah.

    [00:22:00] But, but still, I, to my mind, the publishing process is the same. You get it out there when, when you think that you're confident in the part that you found is fairly robust and then you add to it. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's probably what I need to do more of. Other than trying to have like one paper with, with like 10 experiments and showing every facet, and of course it's not even possible, but 

    Brock Bastian: No, well, there's a, there seems to be, it seems to be somehow the way, way it's going these days though.

    I mean, there's some papers with a lot of studies out there. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. And then it takes like two days to read it 

    Brock Bastian: because 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: 40 pages long or something. 

    Brock Bastian: Yes, true, true. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. But whilst we're on the topic of, um, I mean, you briefly mentioned some stuff about like whether they produced and that kinda stuff. Um, so as I mentioned before we started recording, when I read your book, there were a few studies, um, uh, especially by, I mean, most of the studies are not about your research in the book.

    Um, there were a few when I thought, oh, is that gonna replicate? Mm-hmm. Like, you know, I have this, uh. [00:23:00] Internal, this isn't gonna replicate meter. Mm. And a few times it went off. Now of course in your book you don't describe every study to the full. Mm. So it might just be that didn't have enough information on all of them.

    I mean, like the one I, unfortunately, I didn't write down which examples I thought of, but the, one of the last ones that I still remember is where they have this like, um, you have this word puzzle and you have to find the words and all the words about like death or something. 

    Brock Bastian: I am, yeah. Yeah. The prime 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: and that stuff to me just, uh, I dunno, it always sounds like this is like the pre reproducibility, crisis psychology stuff that's not gonna 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Replicate without like even meaning this study in particular. 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I dunno. How did you, so obviously you did write this book fairly recently. Um, so how do you also, in general, in your research, how do you go about deciding whether to trust a paper? 

    Brock Bastian: Hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, yeah. 

    Brock Bastian: Well, again, I think, I think, um. I don't think any of the, the arguments that I make in that [00:24:00] book are, are going to be, uh, debunked whether one of those papers doesn't replicate or not.

    And I suppose that's the important thing for me, right? Um, if, if I was building an entire book off one paper, and certainly that has happened, um, that would make it a whole lot more of a shaky project. But I, you know, so, so in that sense, um, does that, one, does, does the use or reliance on a paper, which, you know, I, I mean, I'm, I'm a little bit, um, I mean, certainly some of this primary research hasn't turned out to, to be too replicable in some cases, although that doesn't mean that all of it isn't.

    Um, and, and so I think, I think there is a tendency to, to throw, to throw a lot of things out with the bath water sometimes when in this whole, in this whole endeavor and, um. You know, I mean, just because something hasn't replicated doesn't mean it didn't actually also work in the first place. Right? I mean, which, which of those pieces, how, how often do you not replicate something until it's no longer true?

    Um, I mean, obviously there's a point, [00:25:00] right? But I mean, one, one failed replication isn't, isn't, you know, going to, to to be sufficient, I don't think. But again, if, if, you know, and, and, and, and again, if you've got one study with an effect that sort of aligns with the large body of other work or, or some general ideas, um, which have other kinds of evidence even behind them, then you, you know, you can take some confidence in that.

    And if you, that one study fails to replicate, do you throw the whole big picture out? I don't think so. Right. Um, I mean, you know, I think this is one of the things that sometimes people have, have, um, you know, people have forgotten. I mean, that, that, that a lot of that embodiment research. It was really showing one idea, and that is that you can kind of prime things across different sensory modalities.

    Um, and what's the 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: embodiment research? 

    Brock Bastian: Well, where, where, again, you know, you're priming, priming one sensory modality or one approach, um, you know, to, to, you know, priming concepts over here and finding responses over there. There was often, it was often [00:26:00] quite indirect the way that the priming would be, would be conducted.

    But again, um, you know, to me it, it, it, there's some basic ideas that probably seem true in that work, whether or not each one or every one of those replicates I I, you know, obviously is, is up for debate. Um, and it's good to do it. It's good to be checking on these things and replicating them and finding out which ones do.

    But yeah, I think, I think we did sort of run away from all of that pretty quickly at some point. And I think there's other things you've gotta consider about whether or not you wanna sort of see something is holding some water or contributing to a body of evidence that is broader than just that one paper.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Yeah. So it is, uh, yeah, the field of research rather than a particular paper that also in part makes 

    Brock Bastian: Hmm, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: um, yeah. Determines the trustworthiness of a paper almost. Yeah. 

    Brock Bastian: Well, across, across fields too, right? Because I mean, you may have evidence from different fields converging. Um, and I think that's, that's good.

    That's, that's important. Um, and look, you know, anecdotal evidence is still evidence. It's [00:27:00] not, it's not great. But I mean, you know, you, you, you sometimes draw on that to go, look, this, this is something that we seem to experience and it seems to align with some data, um, in, um, you know, in, in a study. Um, which is often, you know, and, and let's be fair, I mean, to run these studies, we often have to strip things back to such a level.

    Um, you know, that, that, that, well, which, which is, which, which one, which you're going to believe more your experience in the world, or this, or the evidence from this study. I mean, it's, it's, um, it's good to show it empirically. I think it's great. We can do that. We do have to be real about what we're actually doing when we're doing this.

    I mean, we are stripping things right back to show something in its purest form. That doesn't mean that if we can't show it, that the whole thing's now not true. You know? It may be. Yeah, it may be, but you know, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah, the reduction of thing is something I'm thinking about too, because I've done some stuff with a prison dilemma, that kind of stuff, and these social dilemmas and corporation tasks.

    And of course it has practically nothing to do with any [00:28:00] real world behavior you might be interested in. 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah. In 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: some way. You hope it still extrapolates to it. 

    Brock Bastian: Well, I think it's the beauty of it. I mean, I, I like doing that kind of research 'cause of the simplicity and, and because it is, um, it does tap directly into, uh, you know, directly into these kind of core, core underlying ideas.

    So that, that's, it's my, my preferred research. But I'm, I'm also a realist when it comes to what, you know, what I'm actually doing in that space. I mean, it's very abstract. Um, and, and you're getting people to do things and, and you to, to, again, to show causality, to show mechanism. You've gotta abstract things to such a level.

    Um, so you gotta, you gotta take a grain of salt with all of it, I think. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Yeah. So said, I'd also like to talk about the book 

    Brock Bastian: Hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That you wrote, uh, the Other Side of Happiness. 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, maybe whilst we're talking about kind of practical things, uh, just, uh, first how, uh, or maybe yeah, maybe first, like why, [00:29:00] why, why you read this book, um, you and 'cause also want to afterwards get to how, how'd you do that.

    Because as far as I understand, you already were professor and had children and everything. Um, so yeah. Why, like, take on the extra, the extra workload of writing ev book. 

    Brock Bastian: Well, I've always, I've always, uh, always enjoyed translating the, you know, the ideas and, and work. I've, I've found that really important.

    It's, it's, yeah, uh, I, it's, it's great to do the basic research, um, and to communicate that through an academic, through academic channels, but I've all, I've always enjoyed the translational part of it as well, um, to see where it lands and how it actually shapes dialogue and how people think. So, yeah, so that's, that's probably why I wrote the book.

    Um, seems like, seems like more, more and more people are doing that these days. So I thought I should probably ever go at it too. And yeah, it was an interesting journey, um, to do that. Even, even just learning how to do it and, [00:30:00] and what, what the process is and what, what they actually want us to write, you know, as, as, as a, as I suppose a, a scientist communicating science and how you do that.

    I spend a lot more time reviewing methods, um, writing that book than I, than I normally might. 'cause you know, that's actually what you communicate to people is. The methods, you know, how, how the evidence was derived, what people did you tell the story, right? So the, the story you often tell is actually a story of methods.

    Um, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: you do that more than I've seen in other books. Also, like describing the, I mean, obviously you can't go into huge detail in a book like this if you want to describe several studies, but, um, yeah, you do go into quite a bit of detail, I think, um, in terms of like what the actual study was. 

    Brock Bastian: Mm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, in a way, I think giving, I guess almost more of an insight into how science works also, rather than just saying people found that corporation in, uh, pay increase cooperation or whatever.

    I 

    Brock Bastian: mean, I might have overdone it. Um, that's possible. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I don't know. [00:31:00] I mean it's, uh, yeah. For me, it's also interesting because I then, you know, don't have to read the entire paper. You know, you get like a snapshot. I think it, like, it's really, sometimes I wish, like, you know, sometimes I thought like, oh, okay, maybe I didn't need to know the details of this study.

    But then other times I thought like, I need more details about the study. 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Like it's, uh, and that's probably just like my, you know, someone's personal, uh, what interests you most. 

    Brock Bastian: Sure. Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But it is kind of nice to have like a small snapshot of like what they actually did. But if you don't mind, can we talk glits about the practicality?

    So I'm also interested in, uh, writing and that kind of stuff. So, um. Did you, you, you decided, did you decide to want to write a book and then you, you know, contacted agents or whatever? Or did, I don't know, someone read your, a newspaper report of your paper or whatever? 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah, so I mean, I, I always, always wanted to write a book.

    Um, it always was something I, you know, [00:32:00] had in mind to do. Um, so I had a, you know, it was one of those lists of things, the bucket list, write a book. Um, and, um, well as it happened, I, I wrote something for the conversation website in the uk and then I had a, um, an agent contact me and say, do you wanna write a book?

    So I said, yes, but not anything about the con, not anything about that article I wrote, but maybe something else. So I was lucky to get, Hey, what, what was the article about? I've actually forgotten. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I 

    Brock Bastian: could look it up. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 

    Brock Bastian: But, um. I, um, after being contacted by him, I, obviously, that was a, a good, a good kind of motivator to, to put together a book proposal, which I had no idea how to do.

    But I asked a friend who'd written a book and then looked at theirs and copied that and, and then got some feedback and, and found the agent was quite useful. And in, in helping with that, I mean, I had to, in the end also, um, write a number of, you know, write, write a couple of, uh, full chapters, uh, or at least one full [00:33:00] chapter.

    And I think I ended up writing, writing a couple of full chapters. But you have to write quite a bit as part of the proposal, um, so that, you know, any, any agent can then see, um. Yeah, see how you write and all the, you know, that's, that's important as well. Um, yeah. And then, um, then, then they take that and they, yeah, again, again, the agent helps to, to edit it and shape it up with you.

    And then they, they shop it around, um, and try and get a, a book deal for you, at which point, you know, you get various criticisms of your writing and whatever else. So it's a brutal, brutal, brutal experience. No, no, no. Probably no more brutal than the academic experience, I think. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, 

    Brock Bastian: I think the agents were always, or the, you know, the, the agents or, or editors were always quite sort of, um, careful.

    And I said, look, don't worry, I'm an academic. I'm used to getting, you know, criticized and told, you know, this is the worst paper I've ever read, et cetera, et cetera. So, yeah, so, so and so then once, once, you know, once you've got that, that agent, um, [00:34:00] you then, uh, and, and the deal, you then go on and write, write the full book, um, for, and, and I mean, some people do it the other way around, write the full book and then get a deal.

    So it just depends. Yeah. That's how it works. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But it seems to me that the, the whole, uh, I can't remember what phrase you just used. The, the selling the book to the publishers must have gone, right. If you got it published a penguin. Right. I mean, it's, to me, it would seem that that's one of the, you know, it's one of the biggest publishers from the outside.

    It seems like that would be what one would hope for. I don't know. 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah. Look, that, that was, that was, I think that was, that was good. That was, that was good to get that. Um, to be honest, uh, there, it wasn't like there was a, um, you know, a, a fight on between the publishers. I think that was the only offer I got.

    So what you want is a fight between the publishers and they start, you know, raising, raising the, the deal. Uh, I'd never had that experience. And, um. Moreover, never actually managed to, um, to sell, sell to get a deal in the American market. Um, which I was a bit [00:35:00] disappointed about, but you know, that's how it went.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Oh, it's only, so wait, what does that exactly mean? I mean, I'm in Ger, I'm in Germany and I ordered it by Amazon. 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah. So it was, it was bought in the uk, um, by Penguin in the uk. Um, and they, and then it was also released in Australia. And, um, but the other, you know, the other sort of, um, you know, it, it did often you'll get a publisher buy it in a different country.

    It can be released through the UK publisher or another publisher will buy and kind of promote it, get behind it in that country. So, um, that, that didn't, so the US one never came off. But, um, but you know, it's, um. So it's a funny, it's an interesting process. Um, it, it's certainly, uh, it's, you know, you, you go through, uh, it's an emotional rollercoaster ride in some ways, which is fun, right?

    I mean, you know, what, what else are you going to do in life?[00:36:00] 

    But, um, but yeah, it's an interesting, and I, I'd probably, I'd probably approach it differently next time a little bit, but, um, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: how? 

    Brock Bastian: Oh, I think, I think, um, I think, I think probably, uh, you know, seeing it, I mean, look, it depends what you, what, what you want to do. I mean, if it's just about communicating, then, you know, that's, that's fine.

    Uh, I think, I think, you know, to often with a book you either need, you need, you need a platform, which I, you know, don't need a reasonable size public profile or platform to. To, to be able to actually get people to, to, to buy it. Um, or you use the book as a platform to do something else. So, yeah, I don't think I really knew that.

    I just wrote a book. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: It seems you had, um, in a way it sounds like a somewhat easier route that the agent contact, you kind of had an agent without, without trying to 

    Brock Bastian: That's true. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That's 

    Brock Bastian: true. Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: [00:37:00] From what I've heard, that in itself can be a step. 

    Brock Bastian: Mm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, 

    Brock Bastian: yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 

    Brock Bastian: Yep. That's true. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Very nitpicky question, but like, one thing I heard, and I, I don't know whether this is in any way true or just like a myth on the internet, but I heard that publishers often want books that are 300 pages long.

    Brock Bastian: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That like, that's a thing. Did you, did they ever, because yours is pretty short, right? It's like 190 pages roughly, which is, I love books that are like 200 pages long or something. I think that's usually better than 300. Yeah, I was just curious whether that was Anna, like the book length was, was that ever a part of the conversation or was it 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah.

    Yeah. No, I think, I think, um, so, so I was, I was actually, I was actually told that, that that would be, that would be sort of the length to write to. Um, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: so which length? 

    Brock Bastian: The, the length that I wrote. Yeah. Okay. Around that, around that. I can't remember how many words it is, but, um, um, but yeah, I, I think it, it is a shorter, it is a shorter book.[00:38:00] 

    And again, probably I would, I'd learn how to tell more stories around the thing. Uh, you know, I think, I think sometimes I, I, so I think, I think some reviews of it is like, it's like reading a thesis.

    So maybe I needed to like, you know, tell more stories or something, um, next time and that, that might be, that might, that maybe that's where the extra a hundred thousand words comes from or extra, you know? 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. 

    Brock Bastian: A hundred pages. A hundred pages. Sorry. Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I mean, when I think, I don't, when I think about like other books I've read very roughly in the same, I would imagine Target audience or that kind of thing.

    Mm. I, if I remember, I think, I dunno why I'm thinking of Adam Ground's book, because I must have read that like six years ago now. Um, anyway, that comes to mind right now. And I think he does a lot of, I talked to this person or this company. Yes. I mean, of course it's about companies, right. But, um, 

    Brock Bastian: yeah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: it's stories, a lot of that.

    Brock Bastian: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And I guess, yeah, if you do that, then you do get another 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: 50% more book. 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah. Yeah. And it's, [00:39:00] and it's good to do that because people, people do like a narrative. Um, but yeah, whether or not, yeah. Again, you, I, I suppose. We're not, we're not, you know, we're not, we're not trained to write narratives as, as psychological scientists.

    So, you know, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I also wonder sometimes with those books, I feel like, okay, Jesus, do I have to really know someone's entire life story just 

    Brock Bastian: to, to get to an 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: example of this thing, you know? 

    Brock Bastian: Well, again, that depends. Exactly. So the audience is important, isn't it? So I think, you know, if you're, if you're wanting to, if you're wanting to communicate to an audience, you just want to get some ideas, um, telling those stories, probably communicate, communicate those ideas most effectively.

    Um, if you, if you're writing for an audience who wants to kind of get into the, you know, the evidence and, and, and really into the, I suppose the underlying kind of, you know, ideas rather than the top, you know, the kind of high level stuff or, [00:40:00] um, then, then that, um, yeah, probably writing more technically is, is, and, and those books are gonna be more satisfying.

    So it really depends on who's reading it and what they're reading it for. Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, but did you have a specific audience in mind or did you just wanna summarize it for yourself or, 

    Brock Bastian: uh, look, I, I, I, I, I, I don't think, as I said, I probably would go into it next time with more forethought. I just started writing a, started writing a book a actually, I was advised to, I was advised to write, um, you know, to, to, to keep it fairly sort of, um, evidence-based and focused more than I thought I would have to, and, and to write, you know, not, not to kind of try and yeah, be too jovial or anything like that.

    So, yeah, so there was, there was a tend there, there was certainly a, I was, the editor did suggest that that was probably the way to try and communicate, you know, the ideas. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, so, uh, starting, just let slightly more about the content of the book [00:41:00] rather than the making of it. Uh, so one thing I kept waiting when I read the book and that never happened, is if you.

    I dunno whether different copies. I have the paperback coffee. 

    Brock Bastian: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: On the pic on the front. You have a not, uh, how should we say? It doesn't exactly say Sipho underneath. 

    Brock Bastian: No, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: but it's pretty much a depiction of that table. 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah, no, uh, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: but you never mentioned it in the book, right? As far as I can tell. The, I was just curious.

    Like did, yeah. How did that 

    Brock Bastian: Well you see that that picture was drawn after, that was, that was after the book was written. Right. And, and, um, so their, their artist came up with that picture. And I actually, I, I, I actually asked the editor exact exact question, is that, is that what it's a picture of? And I never got an answer, but I just assumed it was obviously was, um, it has 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: to be right, or, 

    Brock Bastian: yeah.

    Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So, so yeah, no, it, um, the, that was an interpretation of what was already written by, by the, um, the cover artist. Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: But did you consider, I dunno, also just in terms of talking [00:42:00] about. I mean, yeah, of course. I was going back to priming. I was very strongly primed to think about Phos by having this picture on the front.

    Brock Bastian: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, but is that, did you ever consider, um, and I know like I, for example, you mentioned Brave New World briefly. Um, and somehow I expected like that and the, the myth of Sisipho by come you just somehow be part, I mean, I guess you said like it is more technical in that sense, the book that you wrote.

    Yeah. Okay. But that, okay, so this image is just, uh, yeah. An artist afterwards thought, 

    Brock Bastian: yeah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: this represents it nicely. 

    Brock Bastian: That's right, that's right. But yeah, certainly it it's certainly the right, the right image. I thought. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: So I have, now, I guess if we talk about the book then we fairly quickly get to kind of these broader questions in life.

    And one big one that I am not, that I still haven't, I don't really know how to think about it, is how to, when to decide to go for convenience, comfort, and efficiency. And [00:43:00] when. To kind when it's good to make it hard, kind of, so. Mm. I think like in some sense it's obvious. I would say that it's, it's good to have a washing machine or something like that.

    Mm-hmm. 

    Brock Bastian: Sure. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Like, you know, to, to make your life easy in that way. But somehow if you only do that, you reach this point where, and I think I might have slightly gone there the last few years, where you kind of, you expect and kind of want everything to be easy. 

    Brock Bastian: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, yeah. I dunno. How do you think about, like maybe in your own life or something, how do you decide whether something should be easy or whether it's.

    Good for it to be difficult or, 

    Brock Bastian: well, I, I, I, I think probably, uh, a different way to answer that is just to realize how often in life we're actually seeking out difficulty. So, I mean, you're doing a PhD, I mean, that's a, you know, okay, so you've gotta washing machine. You don't wash your own clothes, but you are doing a PhD so that, you know, you can give yourself a tick on that one.

    That's pretty, you know, that's, it's kind of hard and [00:44:00] torturous, right? So, um, so, you know, we, I think, I think actually when, when you step back, you realize that a lot of the things we already seek out in life do, do involve an element of discomfort and difficulty and, and even pain, you know, so, so. I think we're already doing this.

    Um, but yeah, I, I, you know how much Yeah. When, when do you, when do you make a conscious effort or, or choice to, to engage a little more of it? Um, and, and I look, I I probably don't have a great answer to that. I mean, I, I probably do think about that a bit in terms of kids and my kids and Okay, when is it, you know, how much do you push 'em?

    Um, and, and how much do you sort of sometimes make them go through experiences, let them go through experiences which are perhaps gonna challenge them and, and to how and to what extent? Uh, I think, I think for us, um, yeah, I, I, I mean, I mean, broadly, broadly, I, I, you know, you, you, you start to feel unhappy in life if you don't have any of those challenges or [00:45:00] experiences.

    Even, even just, you know, even just the, the pain of exercise is incredibly important, um, in terms of the mental health benefits that come from that. Um. I do, I do mean that, I think it's, I think it's, obviously exercise is great per se, but I mean, it's also, it's also a, a way in which we are kind of drawn in and away from other things we're worried and thinking about because we're, we're pushing against something that's quite difficult in that, in, in any exercise requires that.

    So, so I think, I think when you zoom out and, and look at it and, and realize a lot of the things we actually enjoy involve an element of this, um, then you, then you realize we're already doing it quite often. Um, but yeah, I'm not, I haven't come up with like a formula of, you know, one painful experience to three pleasant experiences or something like to, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah.

    It's also not for me in terms of like a ratio, but in terms of, um. I don't know. It seems to [00:46:00] me like it's, it's a good idea to naturally try and make things easier for yourself in the future. That's what you might call progress, right? Just like setting up a system that makes it easier. Yeah. But somehow then I feel like I slightly get trapped into this, into this sense of it should be easy, if that makes sense.

    I don't know, is it maybe just trying to have it hard now to like always a bit tricky now to to be easier later or, because for me then it just becomes like if it should be easy, like why is it. Why is it difficult? 

    Brock Bastian: Well, true, true. But, but again, I mean, it, it, it, so, I mean, an example of that, you know, when I, I spent a, a couple of months in, um, in Africa a couple of years ago, and, you know, I, it took me a whole day to pay a bill.

    Um, 'cause it went to the bank and don't accept, didn't accept cash. No. A bank didn't accept, you know, only America. Anyway, it was, it was, it was very, very, and, and so I came back and when I got back to Australia and paid a bill, you know, using the internet in, in sort of, you know, three seconds and, and just was really grateful for that, for that.[00:47:00] 

    Um, but of course that then meant that I had time to go and engage in, maybe go for a jog or, or, you know, maybe, maybe focus on, on doing some work, um, that I was doing. Uh, you know, so, so I don't think that. I think we do make tasks easy. Um, but then what we do is we tend to seek out harder tasks that, that, that it gives us the opportunity to seek out other kinds of challenges in life.

    Um, and I, and I guess I, you know, I mean, again, you, you're not washing your clothes, but you're spending that time thinking hard about what you're doing in your PhD, which is, it's, it's not, it's not easy, you know, it's, it's a hard thing. No. So I, I just, I just think we, I think we actually do it quite frequently already.

    Um, we just, we just don't see it. We don't, we don't see that that's actually the, we don't see that. That's part of what, where the value comes from. You know, you say, why do you run marathons? Well, you say, well, 'cause I enjoy running marathons. Why do you enjoy running marathons? Well, because, you know, [00:48:00] I, I find it enjoyable, but, okay.

    Well what if a marathon wasn't painful? What if it had no pain at all attached to it? What if it was just easy? Would you run it? Oh, I guess not. Um, oh, okay. So I guess I'm seeking out pain, um, when I run marathons. 'cause I enjoy that. Um, it's a challenging, it's difficult. It makes, you know, it, it, it, it gives me a sense of achievement, all of those things.

    So we're always seeking out that, that, that other, um, in, in those sorts of experiences. We just don't realize it. We don't, we don't speak about it. We don't kind of identify it, um, when we talk about it. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. So, um, you mentioned, uh, kids earlier. I had one that was like one point I was curious about in terms of like, um, not necessarily, not that I have children or want advice on how to raise children, but I think it's maybe an interesting lens to look at this question, um, of like, how do you.

    Yeah. If someone doesn't know how to deal with this, like how do you instruct them to [00:49:00] think about this whole thing? Um, 

    Brock Bastian: mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I mean, I don't How old are your children now, if I may 

    Brock Bastian: ask? Um, I've got 2, 2 10 year olds, twins, and then a, a 2-year-old. So a bit, bit of a range. Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Um. Do you like, try and instill, instill difficulty in their life so it's not too easy?

    Or how do you, or do they already have that anyway? I don't know. Um, 

    Brock Bastian: no, no, no. I mean, I'm quite aware of, um, uh, you know, the importance of embracing certain things. So, so, um, I'll try and get them out. Sometimes, you know, on, on a, on a, on a hike, we, we, we, we've still got a, you know, a one particular walk where there's a bit of a climb and, you know, it's a little bit sketchy and haven't quite got them up there yet, but will do.

    Um, uh, you know, they, they do some indoor kids climbing gyms and, you know, it's quite, it gets quite scary when you get to the top. But again, you, you experience, you experience that, that, that capacity to, [00:50:00]to, uh, you know, to, to be in that position and to deal with that, that fear, um, through that. Um, yeah, so there's a, you know, there's a range of, of course, you know, they, they play team sports and get, get.

    You know, losing when you, you know, that's something that you've gotta get good at. Uh, yeah. It's so, so I think you always, you are always sort of wanting them to get out there to, to, to try things, to engage with things. I mean, it's part of it's, it's part of being, being active in life and being engaged because it's always, there's always risk associated with that.

    Um, and I think one of the things that is happening is that kids are, you know, kind of too often reverting back into, um, devices. I mean, of course there's risk on social media too, but, um. Yeah, I think keeping, keeping kids away from, I mean, look, to be honest, if, if they could just have sugar and TV for an, you know, all day, every day, they'd be [00:51:00] very, very happy.

    Um, that, you know, getting, getting, getting away from that because that is, that is, you know, that is like their, their number one, right? They're like, they could sit and eat sugar and just watch tv, but of course that's just pure, pure. And they did actually, we, we let them once we said, you can do anything you want for a day.

    So they spent, I think it was like 11 or 12 hours watching like a repeat episode of, you know, these, these different episodes of this, this, and, and after them, afterwards one of 'em said, never doing that again. And the other one said, oh, I might do that again. I'm not too sure. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: That's the worst when you say like, they'll, they'll see how bad it 

    Brock Bastian: is.

    Yeah, yeah. They just really like it. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. But, um, but I think, I think broadly they did get a sense that, yeah, you can't, you can't just watch TV all day. You've gotta go and do something else. So, um, yeah. So, I think, I think, but, but, but it is, it is I think good to give them those opportunities to, to take risks.

    And, and, and, and of course that means that as parents, you need to be willing to let them take those risks. So give [00:52:00] 'em that independence, you know, at which point do they, we've let, we've started letting them ride to school by themselves. There's risks associated with that. They, for them, it's a, there's, there's a, a sense of independence, but also, well, I don't have somebody with me to look after me as, you know, some, some small amount of fear perhaps attached to that.

    But ultimately through that, they, they gain confidence that they're able to, to manage themselves. And, and you've gotta give, you know, you as a parent, you worry about, oh, that they made it to school. Has there been, you know, any, any problems along the way. But, um, so you gotta, you gotta kind of restrain yourself from wanting to control all of that.

    Um, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah. Wait, was it in your book about. Where did I hear this? That about what was it like fear of heights of children who fall outta trees or something? Oh, I'm just completely making this up right now. 

    Brock Bastian: Don't recall. Don't recall that. But, um, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: okay, then I, yeah, 

    Brock Bastian: I 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: have no idea where this, then this, I might have just made this up.

    Brock Bastian: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Based on me falling out of a [00:53:00] tree as a chart. 

    Brock Bastian: Sorry, my dog Quincy. Let me just, oh no, I actually won minute. Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. I mean, the, the funny thing is since, I guess since the, I mean, I've started this podcast during the pandemic pretty much, and it seems that every episode, not every episode, but frequently, um, there will be some sort of family noise in the background, children crying toddlers or whatever.

    Brock Bastian: So my, my, my wife's gone to pick up the kids, so he is, he is lonely. Let me go and let him in. He'll lie down here, and then there'll be no more barking in.

    All right. There we are. Sit, sit, sit up. Alright. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Well we behaved dog. 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah, he is not too bad. Yeah, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: I think that's the best you can hope for it. 

    Brock Bastian: Exactly. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Dog's not too crazy. 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah.

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: [00:54:00] Um, maybe so one or maybe actually, uh, last point about not sure this is really about children per se, but like, one thing I know, like when I was like 16 or something, I started, you know, wanted to have some money so I can like buy all the cool stuff. 

    Brock Bastian: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And then I had like a, I worked in a supermarket for half a year and I hated it so much.

    Brock Bastian: Mm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, and I always wondered like, I think that was like a very, uh, like, I mean, I was just at the, at the cashier 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Scanning items all day. Yeah. And just trying to stay awake basically. 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, and. I always found that like these, some of these like unpleasant experiences are also just really good for guiding, you know, like I, I wonder like whether most of the things in life in the work related, I've done pretty to the point.

    Mm-hmm. And whether that maybe is, 'cause I just realized like, if you don't do this, you might. Have to do 

    Brock Bastian: that. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think that's a great example actually. I mean, I've, I've done, I've [00:55:00] done some, I've done a lot of really shit jobs myself actually. And, uh, it's, it, I I, I think it's really, it's, it's really important, um, because it does teach you the value of good, you know, of what it means to actually have good work.

    Um, of course, that's not to say that some people don't, aren't quite happy doing those jobs too. Um, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: oh yeah, yeah. Some people love it. I mean, 

    Brock Bastian: yeah, exactly. Sit 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: there, talk to people, whatever. 

    Brock Bastian: Yep. Yep. But if that, if, if, if you've gotta push through and deal with something that you might otherwise prefer not to, and that's part of what you Yeah.

    You've got to have that experience. Um, I think it teaches you a lot about, um, yeah, about that, that sometimes there are you, you, you've gotta do things in life you don't want to do in order to achieve, you know, the goals you need to achieve. And, um, there's a lot of people I think, who struggle with that.

    Um, and, and perhaps have a, an expectation that they, that they shouldn't have to do anything that is not something they actually like. Um, and obviously in, in countries where we, um, are quite [00:56:00] comfortable and people have choices around those sorts of things, that is something that, you know, people have, um, perhaps being able to expect more of.

    But, but certainly there are other countries and, and experiences that people have where that's not a choice. Um, and and it's a, it's a matter of Yeah, it's a matter of something far more. Yeah. Um, far more basic for them. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. It's just weird kind of adversity that, um. I mean, to me also like clarified just the relationship between like money and effort and that kind of stuff.

    Brock Bastian: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Uh, because I mean, like I was, you know, my family was, uh, not poor or anything like that, but, um, my friends got a lot more pocket money than me. Mm-hmm. 

    Brock Bastian: So 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: like I had to, you know, to to, to afford the same cool things I had. You know, that's pretty much I had to work, but then I really, I, I quit after, after a year because I really was like, nah, it's not worth this.

    Brock Bastian: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: no matter how cool the stuff is, I can buy [00:57:00] from it. I'm not, I'm not going back there. 

    Brock Bastian: No. And I guess it depends what, what yeah. What, what the reason is that you're doing it, isn't it? I mean, the, you know, the, the, the, the end goal has to somehow, um, fit the, fit the effort, doesn't it? If you really hate, you really hate the way you're spending your time just to get a nice watch, you probably go You what?

    I probably don't need the watch. I don't 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: need the watch. Yeah, exactly. 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, I dunno like how, how, well, you know, the book per se, or. How much you want to comment on it or something. But, um, I'm just curious, uh, brave new world. 

    Brock Bastian: Hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, what exactly is dystopian about that? What's the problem? It seems like everyone's more like one of your, one of your twins who is kind of happy.

    Brock Bastian: Yeah. Yeah. Watching 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: TV all day and 

    Brock Bastian: eating 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: sugar. 

    Brock Bastian: That's true. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: What's, what's the problem with that? 

    Brock Bastian: Well, I mean, it was written in that way, right? I mean, Aldis Huxley wrote it as a, as a problem. Um, you know, he, he, he viewed that as a very dystopian future where, you know, you, you [00:58:00] end up with some guy at the, you know, the, the main character at the end just trying to experience something.

    You know, through, through painful acts. So it, it's, um, I think it's always for me been that, um, that narrow that, that, that piece around really the idea that trying to eradicate all of our negative experiences and just experience, pleasure really is, is not, not actually desirable or possible. And, you know, quite often when I'm talking about this work, I, I start with that premise.

    I show people a picture of someone in pain and say, you're probably saying to me, look, why would I wanna feel like this? And then I show 'em a picture of a, you know, someone sort of walking through fields of wheat with this kind of blissful joy on, on her face and say, you know, I, obviously that's what I wanna feel like all the time.

    You know, joyful and blissful and never, never ending happiness. And just constantly, always. And as soon as you start just kind of going on like that, it becomes pretty evident that it sounds a little bit benal. And, and actually anything that goes on forever starts to become a, a, [00:59:00] you know, a bit, a bit of an issue and something you don't really want.

    And, and so we, we do need contrasts. Um, and, and sometimes we need to have a little bit of that difficulty or, um, pleasantness, um, to, to be able to even produce any of the pleasantness we experience. And I think that's the whole point of that book is that, you know, the whole society is, is kind of bereft of meaning in some ways.

    Um, just because people are, have, have not got any of that contrast. They've just settled into this life where they can just simply, you know, eradicate, eradicate all those negative experiences and just feel pleasure all the time. Seems a very meaningless existence. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. Is it in part the con, I mean this might be the kind of thing where this question, is it either or and it's the answer's both.

    Um, but is the problem in past the contrast or is it more the, that they don't. Should we say the pleasure for them is not the result of effort they put into it, but [01:00:00] rather just a consumption of, um, what's it called again? 

    Brock Bastian: So super 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: drugs. 

    Brock Bastian: Soma. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Soma. Yeah. Thanks. Um, 

    Brock Bastian: yeah, absolutely. So, so any, I mean, look, effort creates value, right?

    So anything you put effort into, you get more value from, you get more pleasure from. Um, and, and simply to, to eradicate that part of the process or to take out, you know, again, some aspect of an experience, which is often the thing that we actually get the most pleasure from, um, is, is just doesn't, doesn't seem to sound, it sounds kind of good on the surface, but then as soon as you start to scratch the surface, you go, hang on a sec.

    This doesn't actually seem like it would be all that good at all. Of course we, you know, we, we, um, we accommodate, um, uh, and adjust as, as to, to the various experiences as well. So anything which is pleasurable for the moment will, will eventually become quite just numb after a while, or, or downright unpleasant as well.

    I mean, you know, eating chocolate becomes very unpleasant after a [01:01:00] while. Watching TV endlessly becomes unpleasant after a while. Anything to excess, um, becomes unpleasant after a while. Of course, you could keep, you could probably keep jumping between different pleasures, and sometimes we do, but it still, eventually that becomes, seems to become meaningless.

    And then you need to go and find something that's challenging and difficult and effortful that, that, that asks something of you that contributes something, um, to others that you know, actually has a purpose to it, um, which isn't just about your own happiness and pleasure. Um, and often, again, those sorts of things ask something of us.

    Right. If any, any time you, again, as you know, with the cooperation games, pro-social behavior costs. Cost us something, um, normally, and, and so, uh, even if it's just a risk. So, you know, um, that's where you get the meaning from in life. That's where you get the, the, the actual pleasure and, and the the, and you need those experiences then, then you can really indulge and enjoy the chocolate or you can enjoy the, the tv.

    You can feel that it's a reward worth, worth having. Um, [01:02:00] it's just how we are. Um, there, there are, there are people out there I had a debate with, I think, is it David Pierce, who I, I, I think I, I critiqued in my book. Um, very nice guy. Um, and, you know, we, we had a, a bit of a debate because he, he, he has the, the idea that actually there's no reason why we couldn't actually eradicate all of these, these negative experiences in people through the various technologies we have.

    Um, but I think basically we just fundamentally disagree with that one, you know, in the nicest possible way, but just fundamentally disagree. Um, that that's even actually something that which would be desirable. And I, I think it's. The, the difference is really just that, um, I, I accept the human architecture as it is and, and based my argument on that, he thinks, well, if we rewire that architecture, then we could end up with a, a, you know, a, a, a, a reality where we no longer need those experiences.

    And I suppose I can agree with that. I mean, if you rewire things enough, I suppose maybe you could, I don't know. But that seems like [01:03:00] a very different reality to the one we're living, so 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah. It also seems, it's not even a contradiction, right? To say like, well, but if we change everything, then everything changes, kind of.

    Mm-hmm. Not, not to wanna trivializes argument. 

    Brock Bastian: No. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, it's, it's a different argument. Yeah, 

    Brock Bastian: that's right. Yeah. I think that the premise is, is sort of different. Um, so it depends where you start from, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: but do you. I'm just curious. I mean, the, the, the question of is something possible is usually if it's technical, we'll just wait 50 years and it'll happen.

    Sure. But I'm curious like whether something like Soma would be possible, because it seems to me like the kind of drugs we, like the, the narcotics or whatever we have now, they work in one way, in, in like one specific way of, I don't even know exactly how they work, but the, you mentioned, you know, that, um, a lot of the meaning that kind of stuff comes from other places, but in a principle, mm, you could, should be able to stimulate that in some sort of [01:04:00] chemical or whatever way to, so do you think something like Oma is, um, is actually possible in the sense that, um, you know, also you said like you, you, you get used to.

    Whatever new situation is, but in principle, you could maybe also have a drug that kind of minimize that at least or something. 

    Brock Bastian: Mm-hmm. Well, look, one, one of the, one of the things about the drugs we've got at the moment, whether it be antidepressants or painkillers, is they, they, they sort of numb more, more than anything else.

    I mean, antidepressants do, do lift mood, but they also, they also, there's also a bit of a numbing, not, not, not everyone experiences that, but. Some people certainly report blunted, you know, blunted affect, um, positive affect on those on as as well. Um, and certainly there's evidence showing that that painkillers not only blunt the negative, but also blunt the positive affect.

    So it seems that mostly, you know, to, to, to a, to a certain degree that the kinds of, you know, whether it be antidepressants or, or, or [01:05:00] painkillers that we've got now, um, it, it's more of an, it's, it's a bit more of a numbing, um, rather than a kind of eradicating of one end of the head-on spectrum. Um, it's more of a narrowing of that spectrum almost.

    Um, the stabilizing of it, which some people really need. And that's why antidepressants are good. They stabilize the spectrum in some ways. People are, are, are, are not, not falling into the pits of depression quite so much, but also not hitting the, you know, the, the heights of happiness perhaps quite so much as they were.

    And maybe that's for some people a really good thing. Um, 'cause you want stability in life. But certainly we haven't found, I don't think any of the drugs that we. But to my knowledge of things which actually eradicate the negative hedonic aspect to our experience, um, without also narrowing the positive hedonic aspect too.

    Um, so, so is is it, is it, is it possible? Probably. I'm sure we, maybe we'd come up with something, but nothing, we've got the money and 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: that's what I mean, like, it seems always seems like someone's gonna come up with it 

    Brock Bastian: at 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: some point. 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah, could [01:06:00] do. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, do you think people use it? It exists. 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah. I'm sure people will give it a crack, you know, 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: because I mean that's, I think the weird thing about pre word, it seems to me, I mean, if you take out like the whole political thing with renaming everything, you just like ignore that for a second and you just focus on there being this kind of drug that people, that just makes them meaningfully happy, let's say.

    Brock Bastian: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, 

    Brock Bastian: yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: And. Yeah, there's nothing to me that suggested that might not happen. 

    Brock Bastian: Well then you, then you get back to that, that old philosophical argument, you know, which is, um, and I'm just feeling the details of it now, but you know, it's broadly, it's broadly the choice over whether you could, um, you know, experience this rather pleasant experience.

    But you would be in a, you know, VR machine or, or you, you, I'm just, I'm forgetting the actual structure of the island. But broadly the point is, is that people would, we, we have this need to [01:07:00] engage with reality. Um, and, and we would prefer to be engaging with reality than to have this, uh, other experience, which is actually not real.

    And, and even when you position it, yeah, even when you position it, you put yourself into a VR machine or, or you know, a simulator and you can simulate this experience, which is just lovely and perfect and wonderful. And you wouldn't even know, um, you know, you had no actual, you know, you didn't realize that you were part of that this was actually a simulated experience.

    Um, but, but it was simulated or you could just be part, you know, you could be part of this reality, which is sometimes, you know, difficult and painful and people do tend to still have the intuition. No, I think I'd choose reality. Um, I don't, I don't want to be in a simulated experience, even if it's sort of so pleasant.

    So, so there's something about, um, you know, and I suppose in some ways if we're sort of numbing and, uh, I don't know. I mean, what is reality? But if we're numbing ourselves and, and, and making us redesigning things so that we only, you know, we only sort of experience certain aspects of the world. If, if there's other aspects are actually there, do we want [01:08:00] to know that, that they are there?

    I I, we seem to have an intuition that we, we, we want to connect with that. Um, that's certainly that, that thought experiment seems to demonstrate that to some degree. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Yeah, it's interesting. The weird thing is I don't know how I'd answer that if I had to make a decision. 

    Brock Bastian: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Like, it's, it's a weird thing where there's, there's obviously one answer that seems like the one you should say.

    Brock Bastian: Mm-hmm. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, like the choose reality stuff. I don't know. 

    Brock Bastian: Yeah, yeah. 

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: Um, 

    Brock Bastian: maybe will change, maybe, maybe, maybe our, the way we think about this now is, is, is gonna be different in the future. Maybe, you know, um, the matrix doesn't, won't seem so bad after all. Um,

    Benjamin James Kuper-Smith: yeah. I guess, I guess it's still a question that's more hypothetical than potential. 

    Brock Bastian: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.